In an ongoing effort to discredit Christianity as being true, critics (especially atheists) have made the argument that Jesus Christ never said he was God. According to the doubters, the claims that Jesus said he was God were added later by his disciples in an attempt to legitimize their religion and trick people into becoming Christians. However, Jesus on several occasions made it clear that he was God in the flesh–
1. Matthew 26:62-65: At Jesus’ trial before the hypocritical religious leaders, the high priest commanded Jesus, “I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.” Why did he make this demand? He was hoping that Jesus would admit to this claim so they could prove he was a blasphemer. The Jewish leaders understood perfectly, based on their understanding of the Old Testament prophets, that one’s admission of being Christ and the Son of God meant that the individual was calling himself God.
Jesus responded by saying “Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.” The phrase Thou hast said is equivalent to our modern phrase of agreement “You said it!” when someone says something we wholeheartedly support with enthusiasm. It means that Jesus was confirming that the high priest spoke correctly when he demanded to know if Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God. Then he went on to say that they would see him seated at the right hand of the Father and returning to earth in the clouds, both statements being an acknowledgement of prophetic scriptures about the Messiah being God. Jesus’ answer was met with the high priest’s accusation that Christ’s statements were blasphemous. Blasphemy, in the context of this situation, was the sin of claiming to be God.
2. John 5:17-18: When the Jewish leaders mistakenly thought that Jesus was breaking the sabbath, they were ready to kill him. Then Jesus told them, “My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.” This statement from Jesus upset them even more; “therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.” [emphasis mine] The Jews knew all too well that Jesus was saying he was God because no one is equal with God except God, according to the prophets and psalms in the Hebrew scriptures.
3. John 8:56-59: This situation happened when Jesus was arguing back and forth with the Jews “which believed on him.” They claimed to be followers of Abraham while Jesus told them they were of their father, the devil. Then Jesus went on to say he, unlike them, knew Abraham personally and had met him face to face. The Jews responded with, “Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?” Then Jesus said, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.” [emphasis mine] God is the only one who ever called himself “I am” which he first used with Moses when he spoke to him from the burning bush. Moses asked God, “Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.” [Exodus 3:13-14]
I am means he is the ever-existent being who has no beginning and no end. The crowd knew what Jesus was saying, and that’s the reason they wanted to stone him right then and there, because his claims of being God were blasphemous to them and in their deceived minds he was worthy of being stoned.
4. John 10:27-33: In this, his “Good Shepherd” sermon, Jesus made the statement to the crowd, “I and my Father are one.” He was saying that he and God the Father were equals and were the same. Once again, the crowd wanted to stone him and Jesus asked them why, when he had done so many good works in their presence. They replied, “For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.” [emphasis mine] So it was understood by this Jewish crowd that Jesus was clearly, without question, claiming to be God.
The Jews of Jesus’ day were blind to the truth that Jesus was the Christ and is Lord, just like unbelievers today are blind to that truth. If the Jews knew the scriptures as well as they claimed, they would have known that Jesus of Nazareth was indeed their long-awaited Messiah, the Lord in the flesh because he fulfilled hundreds of prophecies while he walked among them. The occurrences in his life and his actions were proof enough to show that Jesus is indeed Lord, even if he had never admitted to being God. In a previous post, I highlighted 20 of the prophecies Jesus of Nazareth fulfilled, but here is a link that has an exhaustive list of hundreds more prophecies that Jesus fulfilled. There is no possible way anyone else in history or in the future will even come close to fulfilling these Messianic prophecies.
Good evening brother and AMEN to all that you have spelled out here. Jesus is indeed God manifest in the flesh. Our God truly is more awesome than words can express.
Blessings in Jesus name.
Yes, God is truly awesome in all his ways! Thanks for your blessings, timbob.
Yeah our Lord Jesus Christ is God, the old and new writings have some similar description on it;
Jn:1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn:1:2: The same was in the beginning with God.
Jn:1:3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jn:1:14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
“BEFORE the Assembly of the Most High and in the presence of the Heavenly host, I am the WORD which was spoken by the Most High” – Book of Sirach, The Bible
This Assembly are archangel, seraphim, others and even lucifer before he become a rebels
Heavenly host – is the non- baryonic (invisible) and baryonic (visible) matter in the universe.
I was following you on the first half of your comment quoting John, but then you got a little off the message by quoting the book of Sirach, which is not inspired scripture. And the heavenly host are spiritual beings, not matter.
I think we should not close our doors for those books like Sirach and others, because when I read on it I found that some of its writings are similar in thought to old testament and four gospels.
By the way, if the “heavenly host” are spiritual being then what is your interpretation about the “assembly of the Most High”?
What is your insight about this?
Well, EYES, you’re entitled to your opinion. However, the book of sirach has been rejected from inspired scriptures in the true Bible for good reason. In Sirach chapters 3 and 30, it teaches salvation by works when the Bible clearly says salvation is by God’s grace, which we cannot earn [Ephesians 2:8-9] That alone makes it a false gospel.
Since the phrase “assembly of the Most High” is taken from the book of Sirach, I’d rather not give my interpretation as it pertains to the Bible since Sirach is not God’s word.
The term “heavenly host” appears in Luke 2 and refers to the spiritual beings in heaven who got together to praise God for the coming of the Messiah. The phrase “host of heaven” is the phrase that mainly refers to the stars, planets, and other things in outer space. But in 1 Kings 22, the phrase “host of heaven” in this instance is referring to the angelic beings who are spirits, including the evil ones, who were around God’s throne [1 Kings 22:19-23]
This is just only a discussion, I read the verse of Sirach 3 & 30 which you have mention and I found out that it is about a parents disciplining their children.
This verse is the same with the old testament as written:
Prv:22:15: Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
Yes heavenly host was found in Luke and 1 Kings in KJV version but when I look at it in others translation such as “Today’s English Version” I found that it is more specific which defined verse in luke and 1 kings content as “angels”.
as you look, there is a messy interpretation of KJV regarding this term “host of heaven” as what you said:
“The phrase “host of heaven” is the phrase that mainly refers to the stars, planets, and other things in outer space.”
“But in 1 Kings 22, the phrase “host of heaven” in this instance is referring to the angelic beings who are spirits, including the evil ones, who were around God’s throne [1 Kings 22:19-23]”
But if you are going to refer this to ” “Today’s English Version” it is more specific.
Therefore we have to look other translation aside from KJV and let our understanding given by God to decide it of what is the best.
Yes that’s true salvation is by God’s grace through our Lord Jesus Christ as written:
Jn:1:17: For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Jn:1:16: And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
and this interpreted by St. Paul as written:
“But the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.” – Galatian 3:24
“But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.” – Galatian 3:25
If we are going to look the interpretation of St. Paul in Galatian 3:24-25, we can found that Saint Paul relate Christ as faith.
But Christ has a commandment, therefore what is the commnadment of faith?
and Saint Paul said:
“For the whole law is summed up in one commandment: “Love your neighbor as you love yourself”. – Galatian 5:14
Thank you EYES for further discussion on your previous comments. Now you have revealed the true intentions of your statements. By referring to the KJV as being a “messy interpretation” shows that you want to attack and call into question a version of the Bible that is based on the most reliable manuscripts of the Masoretic text and Textus Receptus.
Today’s English Version is based on manuscripts that have been proven to have been tampered with–manuscripts that were discovered in a trash heap in Alexandria, Egypt centuries ago.
If Sirach is so inspired, why does it make such a statement as “There is no riches above the riches of the health of the body: and there is no pleasure above the joy of the heart.” [Sirach 30:16]? Jesus and his apostles taught that spiritual riches far surpass any physical riches such as the health of the body. Sirach does not even explain what the joy of the heart is, whereas Jeremiah and Jesus said that evil proceeds out of men’s hearts [Jeremiah 17:9; Mark 7:21-23]. Sin can bring joy to the heart of a sinful man, but the joy God calls us to have is the joy that comes from being saved and then doing the will of God as a result of our salvation.
There is no need to look to other translations aside from the KJV since it is based on God’s truth as reflected in the reliable manuscripts that it’s based on. Your embracing of other versions has caused you confusion since you believe man-made doctrines in Apocryphal scriptures like Sirach are just as valid as the real gospel. The TEV is not more specific–it is more confusing as you have shown by your comments.
Furthermore, you seem to imply that God’s grace for salvation includes following the law, which it does not. You left out the context of the scriptures you quoted to confuse in order to promote this false doctrine. Paul said a few verses earlier in Galatians 5 that “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace,” [v. 4]. The commandments Christ has given us are what we accomplish after we have been saved, including loving our neighbor.
When someone is not saved they are in their “natural” state, and “the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned,” [1 Corinthians 2:14]. Christ’s commandments are foolishness to unbelievers. As Jesus said, “He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him,” [John 14:21]. No one can love Christ and keep his commandments until they have received his salvation.
There is no problem on it, actually that is the same as what Jesus Christ said:
Mt:5:38: Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mt:5:39: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Therefore thus statement in Sirach 30:16 was corrected in the New Testament as you said:
” Jesus and his apostles taught that spiritual riches far surpass any physical riches such as the health of the body.”
Regarding the issue about grace and save, I will not interfere your belief because that’s your faith.
I understand of what you mean, and that is to accept Christ first in your life and have faith on him and Christ will give you a spirit through grace in order to do things which glorified the Father in heaven.
Once again you have misquoted scripture. Jesus’ teaching on turning the other cheek was to correct the misconceptions that the Jews had of the purpose of the Old Testament and the Old Testament is not in agreement with Sirach. When Moses talked about an eye for an eye, he was talking about judges over Israel making sure that the punishment fit the crime. Moses taught that people should go before the law to argue their case and the law should give them fair restitution for the wrongs they suffer. But the Jews of Jesus’ day taught that it meant an individual had the right to be a vigilante and avenge wrongs done to them apart from the courts. Jesus taught about turning the other cheek to correct that wrong thinking.
The idea that Sirach 30:16 teaches is not supported by the Old Testament or the New Testament.
[Regarding the issue about grace and save, I will not interfere your belief because that’s your faith]
Yes, that is my faith. But it also happens to be what the true Bible teaches. That is the true gospel that God taught us through the Lord Jesus Christ. Any other teaching, such as your belief that works are salvific and bring about God’s grace, are a different gospel than what Christ and his apostles taught. Therefore such teachings are to be rejected and considered accursed by those of us who follow the truth–“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” [Galatians 1:8-9]
Don’t “accursed” that person as written in Galatian 1:8-9 because that doing is so harsh as being a christian.
Remember Jesus Christ said:
Mk:9:38: And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
Mk:9:39: But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
Mk:9:40: For he that is not against us is on our part.
I am not against the teaching of St. Paul.
But if you want a sample of heartily works which leads to grace, then that’s the scenario of cornelius as written:
Acts:10:4: … Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
Abraham was not selected by God because he is handsome but because his doing is justifiable to the eye of God.
Jn:3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
and that is interpreted by St. Paul as he said:
Gal:3:8: And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through FAITH, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
therefore gentiles was justified through faith in Christ even without doing the law of Moses
My total assessment on this is you just just misinterpret the statement of St. Paul.
What St. Paul mean about this other Gospel is the gospel of slavery in which he said:
“But the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.” – Galatian 3:24
“But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.” – Galatian 3:2
Teaching that salvation and grace comes by works is a false gospel and is therefore accursed. The book of Sirach teaches a different gospel and you embrace that book as having godly merit when it doesn’t. That’s why I quoted Galatians and no, it’s not harsh for a Christian to quote it when it’s applicable. In all of your scripture quoting you forgot the one that says “the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.” [1 Samuel 16:7]
You also overlooked this scripture–
“What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” [Romans 4:1-5]
If we are justified by our works, it robs God of his glory and gives us bragging rights. True salvation and grace as preached in the Bible only allows for God to get the glory for giving us grace and for giving us salvation. It is not Abraham’s works (or “doings” as you put it), but his faith in God that justified him.
Jesus in Mark 9 is simply telling the disciples that the works the person did were a reflection of the fact that the person was a believer.
In Acts 10, Cornelius was not saved yet in verse 4, the verse you quoted. God looked at his heart and saw he was ready to hear how he could be saved. His works reflected a heart that was willing to receive God’s grace for salvation. This is why he told Cornelius about Peter and told Peter about Cornelius so Peter could share with him the gospel of Jesus Christ. Once again, you twisted the scripture to try to justify your false doctrines.
The apostle Paul in Galatians 3 used the law of Moses as an example of how people use works to try to justify themselves before God, but in doing so he condemned ALL doctrines that teach that one must do religious works to gain God’s grace and salvation. This is the doctrine you seem to espouse since you said “Regarding the issue about grace and save, I will not interfere your belief because that’s your faith.” You made this statement as if you were not in agreement with what I said about God’s grace and salvation being given to us by faith apart from any works.
Yes, the law was our schoolmaster to show us that we are sinners in need of Christ’s salvation. Paul also explained in 1 Timothy 1 that “… we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine…”
the book of sirach and other deuterocanonicals books speaks about wisdom, what you are going to do is to free yourself from being a doubtful mind and influence by other people, read it once again heartily.
someday you will realized that it has a connection to the old testament and the four gospel, just set your mind as a free and avoid being a judgmental mind.
“Teaching that salvation and grace comes by works is a false gospel and is therefore accursed.”
Harry, do not fall yet into a conclusion, remember we are one in Christ.
the fruit of works leads to grace.
The grace of christ.
a work of repentance.
the fruit of faith is work which lead to salvation.
the works of love and the works of mercy.
Have peace in Christ.
The only things I need to keep myself free from are the false doctrines taught in the deuterocanonicals. I’m not being influenced by other people, but by God in the rejection of these books you embrace that teach doctrines that contradict God’s inspired word or provide erroneous information.
The deuterocanon books teach, as I said before, that works like honoring your parents will bring salvation, they promote the use of magical incantations in Tobit, they promote the use of assassination in Judith, and promote prayers for and of the dead in 2 Maccabees and Baruch. These books may be accepted in your Orthodox or Catholic Church (whichever one you belong to), but they are contrary to what the Bible says and should therefore be rejected by true believers.
Repentance is not a work, according to the Bible. Repentance is a mindset/state of the heart of being sorry for one’s sins that leads a person to accept Christ’s salvation.
[the fruit of faith is work which lead to salvation.]
That statement is backwards. We receive salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Then after we receive salvation, our faith in Christ results in works because faith without works is dead.
Faith comes first, then salvation, then works that please God. Once we have salvation, the Holy Spirit dwells in us and produces the fruit of the Spirit in us. One fruit of the Spirit is love (charity), and love should be the impetus, or the purpose, for the works we do. Those works do not lead to salvation, but are the results of our salvation since the Holy Spirit is the one who works in us to bring about these works. And only those who are already saved can have the Holy Spirit in them.
So your understanding of what “works” are (according to what God calls works as he explains in the Bible) is faulty and in error.
what do you mean by salvation?
and how this thing works?
Based on what John 3:16 says, whosoever believes in Jesus Christ receives eternal life. When a person believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, that person believes Christ came to die for their sins so they confess their sins knowing that Christ is faithful and just to forgive their sins, and to cleanse them from all unrighteousness [1 John 1:9]. This is salvation.
When they receive salvation, they receive the Holy Spirit who will then prompt them to act on their faith by doing various things that please God, the Father. These works could be anything from meditating on what the Bible says, to praying to the Father, to fellowshipping with other believers, or giving of a person’s time and resources to help someone in need.
Salvation is not a one time appear, it is a continuous process from the moment we receive christ until the end.
Maybe that’s what is taught in Today’s English Version and your deuterocanon books, but God’s word says something different. Throughout Jesus’ teachings and his apostles’ teachings, the terms “eternal life”, “everlasting life”, and “salvation” are all used synonymously. If the life we have is eternal and everlasting in Christ Jesus, that means it doesn’t start one minute then stop the next then start up again some time in the future. Once we receive it, it’s ours forever and those who endure to the end are the ones who were truly saved. If someone falls away and does not endure to the end, they were never saved.
What is a continuous process is our spiritual growth, our attempts to become more mature in Christ. When Paul said, “I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus,” this is what he spoke of. He, like all of us, still battled his fleshly, sinful nature and had not reached sinless perfection, but he was saved.
what is your opinion about this verse?
“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALVATION with fear and trembling.” – Phil:2:12:
The following verse tells us what Paul meant–“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” [Philippians 2:13] Paul is telling saints (all believers) to be obedient to the call that God has on their lives because God is working in our hearts to give us a desire to please him and the ability to carry out what pleases him.
James also helps us understand Philippians 2:12. “What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” [James 2:14-18]
Paul was stating with different words what Jesus taught when Jesus said in Luke 6 “A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:” Then Christ says a person who follows Christ’s commands is like the wise man who built his house on a rock.
Just as you can tell a tree is good by its action of bearing good fruit, you can tell a person is a true Christian by the works they do once they are saved. When a person truly considers Jesus as their Lord, their actions are proof of their salvation.