Bible · Christianity · Jesus Christ · religion · sodomy

Gay sinners, gay saints, and a gay Savior?

Quite a number of years ago at a church where I was a member, I had several conversations with an older gentleman who attended the church, but was an avowed atheist.  The reason he attended church regularly was to argue against what he thought was the ridiculousness of religion, a belief in God, and the oppressive nature of Christianity.  And argue he did, at every opportunity where there was open discussion about the Bible, whether in Sunday School or Bible study.  He also bent over backwards to outdo the churchgoers in good works to show that there was really no advantage to their being Christians since people, in general, were basically good.

He had a whole list of why he hated Christianity and the idea of our God, but one of his arguments upset me to no end.  His view was that Christianity promoted a lack of masculinity in men.  Yes, that’s right–he thought the Bible and its teachings emasculated men.  That’s why, according to him, there are so many homosexuals–both in and out of the closet–in Christian churches everywhere.  Then he proceeded to give me examples of scriptures that promote homosexuality.  Some of the ones he quoted, and his opinions about them, are as follows:

Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul.  1 Samuel 18:3

I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.  2 Samuel 2:26

The atheist saw this as proving that Jonathan and David were gay on each other.  He didn’t think it was possible for a man to love another man as his own soul or for a man to consider another man’s love as going beyond the love of a woman unless there was some hanky panky going on.  Since in his opinion they were having a gay fling and the Bible spoke positively of their relationship, the Bible was promoting homosexuality.

I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.  Luke 17:34

His question of this passage was how can two men be in a bed unless they’re sexual partners?  Again he felt the Bible promoted homosexuality because one of the gay guys was caught up in the rapture.

Now there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved … He then lying on Jesus’ breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?  John 13:23, 25

In the atheist’s eyes, it wasn’t normal for a man to lay on the chest of another man unless they were both gay.  He took John’s reference to Jesus loving him as John’s admission that they were a gay couple.  This, of course, was the argument he made which offended me the most.

Oddly enough, these are the same arguments used by gay rights activists who call themselves Christians to promote their acceptance in Christian congregations.  I argued with the atheist that these scriptures in no way promoted homosexuality but were a testimony that the unconditional, non-sexual, spiritual love that God helps cultivate in our hearts for others, whether they are the same or opposite gender, is a love that goes deeper than any other love.  Since he was atheist it was impossible for him to understand this since “the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” [1 Corinthians 2:14]

Being a nonbeliever, he was reading the scriptures with eisegesis (reading into it his own ideas) as opposed to exegesis (reading to get an explanation or understanding from it).  He was an educated man, but his education lacked the understanding of non-Western cultures.  In Asia, Africa, and a few other parts of the world it is normal for heterosexual men to greet each other with a kiss or walk down the street holding hands and to sleep in the same bed if the economic conditions can’t afford the luxuries of the Western world.  The Bible was written by ancient southwest Asians and much of that culture is reflected in the scriptures.  Many Western customs and ways of thinking cannot be applied to the Bible.  It is a book with standards we are called by God to conform to, not a book where we make God conform to our standards.

Gay rights activists are just as wrong with their arguments when they use these scriptures to promote their sin as acceptable.  When asked about God’s punishment for Sodom and Gomorrah and Paul’s writings against such behavior, it is argued that the people of Sodom were punished for their violation of other people’s rights by attempting to rape the angels or that they were punished for their pride, gluttony, idleness, and not helping the poor, as stated in Ezekiel 16.  They also argue that Paul spoke against sexual immorality which is different from homosexuality.  According to them, sexual partners of the same sex who are in a consensual relationship are fine.  Sexual immorality, based on their understanding, is when people cheat on their partners or force others to have sex with them or when a person is out to have a whole bunch of sex partners without wanting to commit.

But both the atheist and activists are incorrect.  Even if all of the states in the U.S. legalize “gay marriage” and other gay rights, homosexuality will still be a sin in God’s eyes.  It has always been God’s intention for men and women to have sex with the opposite gender in the confines of a husband [male]/wife [female] relationship, and this will always be his intention as long as the present Earth stands.   And by male and female, I mean those who are born with the chromosomes that determine their gender, not those who change their outward appearance or switch out their body parts for artificial ones in an attempt to pass themselves off as the opposite gender.

Does that mean we should hate them?  No, of course not.  Jesus died for homosexuals as much as he died for the rest of us who were born in sin and deserve hell.  Homosexuality is just as wrong as adultery or lying.

We are commanded by Christ to love even those who are considered enemies.  We should hate a person’s sins and not the sinner.  That means we can interact socially with the unsaved homosexual while at the same time not condoning or agreeing with their behavior.  Those who accept Jesus as their Lord and were involved in this way of life should turn their backs on it.  Now that their life belongs to Christ, they are washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

So yes, there are gay sinners in the Bible, but the Bible speaks against such behavior.  No, there aren’t any gay saints mentioned in the Bible.  Although there are some saved people in the church who struggle with their flesh in this area, God calls them to forsake it.  And, no, neither Jesus Christ our Lord, nor any of his disciples, were gay.

–posted by Harry A. Gaylord–

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12 thoughts on “Gay sinners, gay saints, and a gay Savior?

  1. Hi, Harry

    I agree with you, but I do have one question. I heard the bit about how Sodom was punished for this or that, but not homosexuality, so I looked it up, but I can’t find where the sin of Sodom is specified. Undoubtedly it included homosexuality, but I’m kind of wondering whether Sodom et al weren’t punished for a whole raft of sins, one of which was homosexuality. What do you think?

    God bless,

    Cindy

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  2. Hi, Cindy

    Here’s the scripture you’re looking for–

    “Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

    And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.” Ezekiel 16:49-50

    God lists the sins here that he punished Sodom for and homosexuality was one. It falls under the word “abomination” since God commanded males, “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.”

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  3. homosexuality is not a sin. if it was a sin, then God wouldn’t of made them that way. You should be more open minded to peoples choices and even their beliefs. I am a Catholic and I am not anti-christ. I am straight and I support gay marriage. Marriage isnt about gender. It is about love.

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  4. Proud Catholic,

    Your opinion is based on your own personal beliefs and not on God’s truths found in scripture. I know it’s the in thing to create God in our image and try to force him to conform to what we consider right in our own eyes, but the true living God who created our universe and gave us his manual (the Bible) to live by says that homosexuality is a sin.

    In the beginning when God created male and female, he established marriage. “And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.” [Genesis 2:23-24]

    God established the principle that will stand as long as the earth stands that a man (male, i.e. a person w/ x and y chromosomes) should leave his parents to bond spiritually, emotionally, and sexually with a woman (female, i.e. a person w/ two x chromosomes) to be one flesh in marriage with her.

    Then God expressed his laws of morality through Moses that stated “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.” [Leviticus 18:22]. Then two verses later God gave the reason why he had Moses share his laws with his people–“Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:” [Leviticus 18:24] These laws were stated clearly so mankind could be shown what his sins are.

    “Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane…” 1 Timothy 1:9

    God himself says that homosexuality defiles nations and is one of the reasons why he punished the nations that inhabited the land of Canaan. Jesus even held to the teaching taught by Genesis 2:24 when he quoted it in Matthew 19:4-6 when he stated that God made male and female for each other to be joined in marriage to each other.

    Jesus also stated the principle in this scripture that what God has joined together, man should not put asunder. This includes the idea that a man should only be with a woman in marriage. Any other marital match-up–whether it’s same gender, transgender, or transsexual–is unacceptable to God. So marriage is definitely about gender and since God established marriage, it is his sovereign right to establish the parameters of what marriage is and how it should be carried out.

    The idea that homosexuals are born homosexual is not true and will never be proven by reliable, truthful science in spite of what “gay activists” claim. Even if we were to believe this argument were true, it still doesn’t let homosexuals off the hook. All human beings are born in a sinful state and are in need of God’s salvation. We can easily argue that since man is conceived in sin and born sinful and since God clearly states the types of sin man commits, including homosexuality, we can then argue that certain people could be born with a sinful nature that prefers certain sins. Some people prefer to be liars, some prefer to be adulterers, and some prefer to be jealous. Then, of course, others prefer to be homosexual. However, I believe it is a learned behavior that can sprout from such things as a bad relationship with one or both parents, or from sexual abuse, or from watching a movie depicting perverted sex, or from witchcraft rituals, or simply from parents making wrong decisions when raising their kids (like letting a boy dress up in girls’ clothes and makeup).

    God is our creator, but he does not create our sinful nature. Our sinful nature was created when Adam and Eve sinned in the beginning and our sin was passed on generation after generation from them, so your argument that “if it was a sin, then God wouldn’t of made them that way” is moot. Man made himself sinful and God had nothing to do with it. When God says something is a sin, you can best believe it’s a sin since God is always truthful and always right and has never been proven to be a liar or to be in error.

    I’m not impressed with your claim of being Catholic since Catholicism itself is full of hypocrisy. Although the leaders from the Pope on down of your religion claim to be against homosexuality in public, in private they are in favor of homosexual behavior and it is thought to be part of what God intended. That’s why there are so many Catholic clergy involved in it. It’s an acceptable part of their secret culture, just like getting drunk is.

    Homosexuality has never been about love. It’s about hedonistic lust, the “if-it-feels-good-do-it” mentality. Homosexuals are prone to cheat on their “committed” partners if they see someone else who suits their fancy, so they’re really no different than adulterers. And the argument for “gay marriage” is really not about gay marriage. It’s about promoting their lifestyle as normal and acceptable, when God says it is not normal or acceptable.

    So let God be true, but every man a liar.

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  5. Yeah this is a controversial issue but my view on this is;

    Is marriage a civil right?

    or

    Is marriage a religious right?

    if we can’t decide of that two questions then,

    And Jesus Christ said:

    “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s. And they marvelled at him.” – Mark 12:17

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  6. Marriage, simply put, is a God-ordained principle that men should be joined to women in this God-established partnership. God created Eve to be a “help meet”, i.e. suitable helpful partner, for Adam and this is the way God wanted it to be for all male/female couples looking to get married. As Jesus said, “What God has joined together, let not man put asunder.” This not only applies to divorce, but to the law that God established in the beginning for men to only be joined with women as one flesh in marriage. Woman was made for man and vice versa, so man should not put them asunder by establishing his abomination of “gay marriage.”

    The issue only becomes a “controversy” when sinful man wants to change God’s laws to match his sinful preferences. Even if man changes his laws to go against God’s laws, God will not recognize such unions and what God doesn’t recognize, true Christians are not obligated to recognize either. Just like Nebuchadnezzar made a law to force his subjects to bow down to an idol in Babylon and the three Hebrew boys disobeyed his law since they subjected themselves to God’s laws (which are superior to man’s because “we must obey God rather than men”), Christians can do the same.

    The gay rights activists seek to change the times and laws like another history-changing personality will. Daniel 7:25 says “And he [Antichrist] shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws…” Gay rights activists, seeking to change God-ordained laws and speaking out with their words of ungodly protest against what God has established, are reflecting the spirit of antichrist.

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  7. Yes you are right brother.

    But I think what they want is a piece of paper which recognized them in the eye of MEN and for whatever legal purposes they want it.

    because mostly of this guys are already living in one roof.

    In short they already practicing a sinful act which prohibited by God.

    Does this mean that banning a marriage rites and rights of this people help them to alleviate their sins?

    Does this means that allowing this people on this rites and rights can contaminate a christian faith?

    or can contaminate a certain nation in which christian community dwells?

    One thing I can say brother, and Jesus Christ said:

    “Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.” – Matthew 5:13

    Because

    “And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the TIME IS AT HAND.” – Revelation 22:10

    “He that is UNJUST, let him be unjust STILL: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.” – Revelation 22:11

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  8. Homosexuality is a “choice” and not really a “right.” Just like a person can choose to be a drunkard (if they are at least 21 and do it in private) or commit suicide even though these harmful actions are not prohibited or preserved by law, homosexuals can choose to be the way they are since sodomy laws are no longer enforced. Their ultimate goal, as I said before, is not really about marriage. By forcing the law to accept their sinful choice, they hope to violate the right to free speech of anyone who speaks out against their sinful choice by having them put on trial, fined, and/or put in prison. This has already been happening in Canada, parts of Europe, and in Philadelphia.

    Then after they “normalize” their sinful choice, many of them want open, unfettered access to children to have sex with them while proclaiming that adults having sex with children is normal and acceptable. Or, if they choose not to have sex with kids, they hope to at least brainwash them into thinking there’s nothing wrong with their lifestyle.

    How do I know this? As I mentioned in another post where I discussed homosexuality, I had a professor once who was a gay rights activist who talked about what gays hoped to accomplish with their movement and normalizing pedophilia was one of their many goals.

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  9. First of all, an “open forum”is what we all need.
    Thank you for providing it!

    However, EACH and EVERY one of us is HUMAN.

    It is my belief (and mine only,) that, as a Christian, I am saved from my sins.

    Jesus made this possible for me…not THIS SITE (for all its delusions of grandure.)

    No SAINT, SINNER, or the 99.9999% of those in beween have the ABILITY or the RIGHT to speak for GOD (or for ME.)

    I am NEVER sure that what I offer to GOD is “RIGHT” or “Acceptable.”

    What I am CERTAIN of is that GOD…As I understand HIM…Does not need a TRANSLATOR.

    I only ask that you deal with your OWN failures (as you see them, according to GOD,) and that I deal with God as I understand HIM.

    I am gay…I am Christian…I will pray for you.

    God Bless.

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  10. Harryagaylord…

    How busy you must be protecting the world.

    I am very sorry that I have added to your load as a gay man.

    If it makes me more fit for GOD, I’ll share with you that I do NOT eat shell fish. (Perhaps that will save my soul, as we all know that is an abomination to God.) I have NEVER eaten shell fish. If YOU have, I will ceratinly pray for you…

    And you know what? Saying that doesnot make me feel one bit better…

    I thought it would, but…No…

    It only made me wish that I were stronger as a Christian and a Person…

    Most of all, it made me wish that I were a better person than any of you…However, Iam not.

    We are ALL SINNERS and kids of GOD.

    STOP being a ROADBLOCK to GOD’S LOVE.

    W.

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  11. Brent,

    First of all, my being a “ROADBLOCK to GOD’S LOVE” is not an accurate comment. If you read my post all the way through, you’ll find that I clearly stated it was wrong to hate homosexuals and that we are all sinners in need of salvation. Love, as displayed in the Bible, means you speak the truth, hoping a person will change for the better even if they are offended by your truthful words.

    [No SAINT, SINNER, or the 99.9999% of those in beween have the ABILITY or the RIGHT to speak for GOD (or for ME.)]

    If we were to believe this argument, we could all just toss out our Bibles since all of the writers of the Bible would be wrong. All who surrender their lives to Jesus Christ are called by God to go out into the world and teach what God says in his word. That’s what Jesus commanded in the New Testament. We are also called ambassadors for our Lord in the New Testament. So, yes, some of us DO have a God-given right to speak for God. This is why the disciples in Acts ignored the commands of the Jewish leaders to stop preaching.

    [I am NEVER sure that what I offer to GOD is “RIGHT” or “Acceptable.”]

    Then this must mean that you really don’t know if you’re a Christian. It also means that you doubt what God commands us in his word. So if you’re never sure about what you offer to God being right or acceptable, why go through the trouble of making these comments since there’s really no standard by which we can determine if you’re right?

    [If it makes me more fit for GOD, I’ll share with you that I do NOT eat shell fish. (Perhaps that will save my soul, as we all know that is an abomination to God.)]

    Your argument about food making a person clean or unclean was resolved by Jesus Christ centuries ago. Haven’t you read the New Testament? Jesus said what goes into a man is not what makes him unclean, it’s what comes out of his heart (his thoughts and intents behind his actions) that makes him unclean.

    If you really were a Christian, you would believe the New Testament, which tells us what is acceptable. You would believe Paul’s words (who was called by God to speak for God) when he says, “For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men,” [Romans 14:17-18].

    The kingdom of God has nothing to do with what a person eats or drinks. Therefore, your argument about shellfish is baseless.

    Jesus said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments,” [John 14:15] and then John (who was also called by God to be his translator and speak for him) said, “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous,” [1 John 5:3].

    Although we Christians don’t get everything right 100% of the time and we have our shortcomings, we still at least press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling we have in Christ Jesus. We have a God-given urge to do better and be better than our faults so we can keep Christ’s commandments.

    The fact that you can’t or won’t determine what is right and acceptable, when the Bible clearly states what is right or acceptable, calls into question whether or not you are truly a Christian as you claim to be.

    So I would suggest that you “Examine yoursel[f], whether ye be in the faith; prove [test] your own sel[f],” [2 Corinthians 13:5].

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  12. And one more thing, Brent.

    I always find it unbelievably hypocritical how gay rights activists always yell how they should not be censored and should have the right to say what they want. Then when someone comes along who uses their own right to free speech to speak out against the sinful gay lifestyle, the gay rights activists want them censored and the right to free speech of their detractors to be violated.

    The whole dust-up about Obama choosing Rick Warren to do the invocation at the Inauguration is the perfect example of their hypocrisy.

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