“What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and has crowned him with glory and honour.” Ps. 8:4-5 (KJV, emphasis added)
or
“What is man that You take thought of him, And the son of man that You care for him?
Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty!” Ps. 8:4-5 (NASB, emphasis added)
I was in a Bible study class a few years ago where the above scripture was discussed. The scripture was read by someone from the KJV and then in discussing it, someone else in the class criticized the KJV for translating the word angels incorrectly. In the Hebrew text the word used is elohim which, according to the gentleman who spoke, only refers to God. So he stressed that mankind was made a little lower than God and we are at least equal to or superior to the angels.
Although it’s true that elohim refers to God the majority of the time in scripture, we must compare scripture with scripture to find out what the translation of the word should be. Our answer is found in Hebrews 2 where the writer describes this Psalm as being messianic–
“Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: …
“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.” (Heb. 2:7, 9)
Bible versions, such as the NASB, that translate the word as God in Psalms turn around and translate the word as angels in Hebrews. Why? The word angels is how it really should be translated in the context of scripture since the Psalm is messianic and spoke of how Jesus would humble himself to take on the form of feeble humanity. The KJV translators got it correct because they knew the importance of comparing the whole word of God to make sure they translated properly. They knew that the New Testament revealed what was concealed in the Old Testament.
But God always supplies us with two or three witnesses as verification, so let’s see if anywhere else in scripture we find the principle of man being lower than the angels–
“And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.” Luke 20:34-36 (emphasis added)
In this passage, Jesus clearly states that once the saints are given their resurrected bodies, they become equal to the angels. We understand from the scriptures our resurrection is a promotion from our present corrupt state. Therefore, if we get a promotion to become equal to angels, then we are at this time lower than (inferior to) the angels.
Still, there is one more witness attesting to the fact that angels are presently higher than us. Peter spoke about prideful humanity in 2 Peter 2. He talked about rebellious sinners who are so full of themselves that they have no regard for government authorities or spiritual authorities in heaven and how they go so far as to rail against spiritual beings.
Then in his explanation of how angels in heaven do not rail against other angels like prideful humans rail against certain angels, Peter states in 2 Peter 2:11 that angels are “greater in power and might” than humans. This means they are higher than us in the ranks of God’s creation.
So, saints of God, let’s not think of ourselves more highly than we ought to think.
–Harry A. Gaylord–
sunandshield.wordpress.com 
As I read Psalm 8 I see no evidence that it is a “Messianic” Psalm. As David is admiring the glory of God’s creation in his awe he asks God “Why do you care about man? What is it about him that interests you when you are obviously so much more glorious? I don’t think that David would ask a question like this in reference to Jesus. Nor would I think that God would inspire such a statement about the Son of God. I think that this Psalm is speaking of mankind and if you look at Genesis 1:26-31 you can see that Psalm 8 is referring to the authority and dominion that God gave Adam.
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Psalm 8 and Hebrews 2 is about mankind not Jesus as God. It includes Jesus bcos he lived up (promoted) mankind. It was through him that’s why he operated with the body to bring it back to it’s original form of existance! The scriptures are praising mankind.
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Your (mis)understanding of these scriptures have Word Fake written all over them. I guess if we follow your example of defining scriptures we can redefine marriage, family, what a baby is & everything else.
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Thank you
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There is more to this Psalm than meets the eye looking at most English translations. Jehovah and Lord are put next to each other, starting off, and then lots of royal language is used, such as a prince coming to destroy the enemies of the weak victim. The weak victim is mankind, whom the kingly figure rescues from our enemies and our distress through his glorious might and vigor. The king in this case would be the annointed one, the Messiah, the Christ, the Lord who is also Jehovah, who is made a man to rescue man. As a man himself, the Christ can restore the authority to mankind that mankind lost when we sinned. All of mankind is restored only in Christ, the God-man – the lord (king) who is also LORD (God) who is also man.
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[As I read Psalm 8 I see no evidence that it is a “Messianic” Psalm.]
You have to understand that scriptures sometimes refer to multiple incidents throughout history. In other words, prophecies in the scripture can be fulfilled by more than one occurrence in history. For instance, Jeremiah 31:15 prophesies of Rachel (Rahel) weeping for her children, the nation of Israel. This prophecy spoke of Israel’s defeat and captivity in a foreign land. But this prophecy was also fulfilled and quoted in Matthew 2 when Herod slaughtered innocent children of Bethlehem in an attempt to snuff out the Messiah.
Psalm 8 speaks of man’s dominion, but it also speaks about the Messiah coming to Earth in the form of a man, a form that was lower than the angels. This is what the writer of Hebrews is showing us in the New Testament in chapter 2. The writer of Hebrews wrote what the Holy Spirit told him to, which is why it appears in the Bible. Are you saying–since you don’t agree with Psalm 8 being Messianic–that the writer of Hebrews is wrong?
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Hello Harry. Ps..8:5 in the KJV reads “…a little lower than angels…” In the ASV,,RSV and some others “…a little lower than God. The meaning of God in Hebrew is Elohim, which could mean gods, angels, messengers, dignitaries etc.
Now if God said in Gen.1:26 “Let us make man in our own image and likeness, man was made like God. God is Father and has the pre-eminence. In Ps. 82:6 the prophetic prayer is:…Ye are gods. In Eph.4:11-14, those who have accepted Christ as their personal Saviour are given apostles, prophets evangelists pastors and teachers to become like Christ- the fullness of Christ. After the fall man lost his destiny, but Jesus, the Lamb was slain from before the foundation of the world to redeem man from his fallen state. God’s plan has not changed.
Some people think that we should not think too highly of ourselves, and they are right, but we should also know as born again saints who we are in God. In the book of Revelation we read of Jesus and His Christ. Referring to a first fruit company of saints who will take the Kingdom from the enemy (Dan 7:18) KJV 1Cor.6:3 We are reminded that we are to judge angels’s. This is what Satan is afraid of.
Thanks.
.
.
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If you read all of my comments in response to other comments for this post, I have covered all of these points. The ASV, RSV, and other versions are based on manuscripts that have been tampered with by godless men. They are the family of Alexandrian texts that were found centuries ago in a trash heap among the ruins of ancient Alexandria and are unreliable.
Just because we were made in God’s image doesn’t mean we are higher than angels, as I’ve said in other comments. Psalm 82:6, if you read it in context, is a rebuke. God was rebuking them for being unjust judges among his people. He called them gods in being appointed to judge right from wrong, but they neglected their duties, so he told them they would die like any other man and they would fall like any other prince. He was not saying they would be higher than angels and like God.
Ephesians 4 has nothing to do with this subject. Spiritual offices/gifts do not make one a little lower than God. When we judge angels, these are not the heavenly angels we will be judging. The scriptures speak time and again how Satan will be placed under our feet. It is the evil angels that we will judge, not the righteous ones. We will witness how the angels who kept not their first estate will be judged by believers in Christ, but this does not mean we will be like God and have his status. God said he will not give or share his glory as the true living Godhead with any other being [Isaiah 48:11].
Furthermore, as I stated before, no one can tear down the fact that Jesus the Lord said we will be equal in status to the godly angels in the resurrection. Nor can you argue against the fact that Peter said angels are greater in power and might than the saints are.
You, like the other commenters who disagree with me, need to accept God’s word for what it actually says and means. The meaning of the words are supplied by the context in which they are used, but you have tried to inject your man-made doctrines into what the Bible says. When you compare scripture with scripture by the true understanding of the Holy Spirit, it is clear your arguments are not true.
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You are absolutely correct, the author is not exactly on point I am made in his image and that settles it b/c that’s where it all started.
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Man is the vessel made in God’s image that partners with God as God’s lineage to create eternal spiritual children for God, and our desire. Man judges the angels from a superior position, not an inferior position. Angels are only more advanced until, our true Adamic nature is restored. They have the ability to scrutinize our compliance to heavenly law. Lucifer is the accuser of the brethren. Finally Angels are servants and ministering spirits. We should appreciate the angels that run for open spaces of faith, when we turn up our faith, and who protect us.
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Servants and ministers in God’s kingdom does not mean inferiority. See my previous comment. Your comments, as others who argue against the points I made, seek to make men gods which takes us back to Satan’s lie in the Garden of Eden.
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I totally agree. Why else would they wonder why God was so mindful of man. As saved saint we are made in his Zoe image.
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No, I am still trying to sort this out. I am leaning toward the understanding that Elohim in Hebrews 2:7 is Godhead not angels. How can we be lower than the angels if according to Hebrews 1:14 “Angels are ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation” and 1 Corinthians 6:3 says that we will judge angels?
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With questions like the ones you’ve raised, you have to look at the whole scripture from Genesis to Revelation and you have to look at the scriptures with exegesis (getting out of it what God is really saying) as opposed to eisegesis (reading into it what you want to get out of it).
The context of Hebrews 1 and 2 is showing how Jesus, who is superior to the angels, humbled himself to be made lower than the angels like man is, so he could save man.
Angels are our ministers, but so is Jesus. Jesus said in Matthew 20:27-28, “And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.” You’re making the assumption that ministers in God’s kingdom are like the ministers in earthly kingdoms. In other words, you mistakenly believe a minister is lower than the ones they serve.
1 Corinthians 6:3 says we will judge angels, but that is in the future when we have gone through the judgment seat of Christ and are given our resurrected bodies to reign alongside the Lord. It is only at that time that we will become “equal unto the angels,” as Jesus told us in Luke 20:36. If we become equal to the angels at the time of our resurrection, and our resurrection is a promotion, then it stands to reason that in our present state of having corruptible bodies that we are lower than the angels.
If we go along with your understanding that man is a little lower than God and is superior to the angels, then our resurrection becomes a demotion where we become equal to the angels. Why did Jesus suffer all that he suffered just for us to be demoted in the end? This goes against everything the scriptures teach.
The scriptures tell us that angels can move faster than us, are way stronger physically than us, and that they go back and forth from heaven to earth on a regular basis. We as humans don’t have this power within ourselves to do these things like angels do. This alone shows us they are superior to us.
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Yes, angels are superior to us in power, ability, and knowledge. However, in the context of what Jesus was talking about, we will be like the angels in that we will not die and we are equal to the angels in that regard. It also appears we will rule/govern/judge angels in our glorified state (1 Cor. 6). So we will be equal to them as far as marital status and never dying but that is as far as it goes. As co-heirs of Christ though we were made lower than the angels we will be glorified in that day, for when He returns we will be like Him, not exactly like Him but as like Him as a glorified human can be, lol.
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you use equal to be synonymous with the same. OK Luke 20 36 is one scripture that is clearly talking about being like angels when it comes to them being eternal i.e. not dying. You have pointed out that in strength, speed and travel we are different i.e not the same, so are we in purpose, redemption, grace and mercy. You think that beings that cannot know Grace, Redemtion, Mercy and God dwelling in them are superior !!!
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[you use equal to be synonymous with the same]
This isn’t my doing. The context and content of certain scriptures proves that “equal” and “same” mean that the nouns being spoken of are on the same level, that one is not above or below the other.
Scriptures prove that heavenly angels at the present time are superior to humans. I’ve provided more than enough scriptures to prove this point that God himself has made obvious in the Bible. To argue against this established truth only means that the person(s) going against this truth is caught up in man-made doctrine to which they have been subjected to for an extended period of time. Instead of taking God at his word, they have given in to lies taught to them by men who they have esteemed too highly.
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Angels are not the vessels that give birth to eternal beings. We are like God, made in his image. We are to judge the angels. You cannot judge from an inferior position. Because of the Falll of Man we did not develop properly and angelic qualities have remained unsurpassed. Angels are servants and ministering spirits. “Lower than God” is the correct translation.
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[“Lower than God” is the correct translation.]
Only if you ignore the rest of scripture. Christ was also a minister and servant, but that did not make him inferior (Matthew 20:28, Luke 22:25-27). You’re thinking in terms of how the world system works, not how God’s heavenly system works.
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So, saints of God, let’s not think of ourselves more highly than we ought to think.
—
Yes this is true because the law which came from heaven stated to us that:
Mt:20:27: And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
the angels and we are all servants in different category as shown in revelation and daniel.
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The two passages of scripture that are in question here are just that two different passages of scripture. The one in Psalms is relating the position that God made man in orginally in creation. God made man to have dominion over ALL things that he created. The word dominion in the orginal Hebrew means to rule or reign. This is not man thinking more highly of himself than he ought to think. This is God placing his created man in a position of ruling just a little lower than Himself ( God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost and then created man).
It is clearly seen that created man is the crowning creation. But man fell from this God given place when he traded everything that God had given him to Satan. Now when this happened man lost his place of rule over the rest of creation and found himself at the bottom of creation under the rule of creation. ie. Satan
The passage in Hebrews, when you read it is almost a direct quote from Psalms, but stop and think about it. The word angels here when you look at it in the Greek is the word messenger or angels. And rightly so. Jesus, the Son of God, willingly set aside his Glory and came to this world as a man. ( He was fully God and Fully man). The only way Jesus could make the way of salvation availible to man was to come in the same place of man, which is now lower than the angels.
So we have two different scripture talking about two different things. One is talking about man in his orginal created form and the other about Jesus coming to man’s defeated position.
Now let me share one other thing to you. 2 Cor. 5:17 Says Therefore if any man be in Christ then he is a new creature. Old things have passed away. Behold ALL things are become new.
The word creature in the Greek means orignal formation. When you come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ as your personal saviour God restores you back to your orginal formation. We now have our place back that God had made for man in the begining!!!
Is it any wonder why this scripture is getting some much attention in today’s time. Satan is doing his best to keep Christians away from the truth of God’s word. Satan is trying to keep Christians in a defeated position. Satan don’t want Christians (born-again Bible believing and restored) knowing what position we hold in God’s order of creation. Satan knows that if we get ahold of this truth then he has no hold over us. Because we have the power to rule over him, not by anything we have of ourselves but throught the blood of Jesus Christ.
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THank you for this scripture and writing it this way, we are back in his formation, with power and authority:
Now let me share one other thing to you. 2 Cor. 5:17 Says Therefore if any man be in Christ then he is a new creature. Old things have passed away. Behold ALL things are become new.
The word creature in the Greek means orignal formation. When you come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ as your personal saviour God restores you back to your orginal formation. We now have our place back that God had made for man in the begining!!!
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Christina,
Ronnie did explain this part well, but his overall premise for explaining this was based on the false belief that we are a little lower than God. This makes his conclusion all wrong, and it’s wrong to overlook what I stated in another comment:
“…newer corrupt Bible versions use “a little lower than God” in Psalm 8, then in the New Testament they say Jesus was “a little lower than the angels” in Hebrews 2. So if mankind is to be a little lower than God in Psalm 8, but Jesus is made a little lower than the angels in Hebrews, that means mankind is exalted above the Lord. Only Satan would want such a thing. He is the author of confusion and has certainly succeeded in confusing people like you about these scriptures. On the other hand, the kjv translated both Psalm 8 and Hebrews as “a little lower than the angels” because that is what man was in his original state and that’s why Christ had to be made “a little lower than the angels” to be like his brethren.”
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Ronnie,
Nice try, but the writer of Hebrews quotes the Psalm to reveal to us what it means. Both scriptures have the same meaning. Even in our original state, we were lower than the angels. Adam and Eve never flew back and forth to heaven as angels do. Adam and Eve were not able to pass through solid objects like angels can.
Your twisting of the scripture even flies in the face of what the Lord Jesus told us about our resurrected bodies. It is only when we are physically resurrected that we become equal to the angels [Luke 20:34-36]. When you make a spiritual point, you have to compare scripture with scripture to make sure your point is correct. You in your explanation have failed to do this.
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So your saying flying back and forth from heaven is the deciding factor of what order of rank for creation? That is like saying a bird is over fish because it can fly. But a bird can not fly for the most part, but there are water fowl so are they higher than both? NO, this is bordering on stupidity. “Adam and Eve never flew back and forth to heaven as angels do.” Of course not, they had no need to, YHWH came here to visit with them instead. Adam was to have dominion here, his job was here. As for “Adam and Eve were not able to pass through solid objects like angels can.” How do you know? Before sin maybe they could? It is a big assumption to argue this with no scripture. Even if they could not this is still no sign of rank, they each were working within the limits God placed them. They were made to do what they were designed to do. The angels are ministering spirits sent forth for those of us who are to be heirs of salvation. Man kind was given dominion over all the earth, then man fell below the angels.
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It never ceases to amaze me how men, whether they call themselves Christian or not, seek to exalt themselves higher than where God intended. The statements I’ve made are true to God’s word, yet you try to equate the truth I’ve spoken with stupidity.
Hebrews 2 and Jesus Christ have already proven that man is lower than the angels in his present state and that he will be equal to the angels at the resurrection of believers. Just because angels are called ministering spirits does not mean they’re lower than us as you & others imply. As I stated before, our Lord said “And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.” [Mark 10:44-45] In God’s kingdom, the ministers are the chiefest. If Jesus came to minister to us and is Lord over us, then angels as ministering spirits does not mean they are below us.
You are arguing based on humanist thinking disguised to look like Christianity. I have given the word of God as it is written by God’s inspiration in the Psalms and the New Testament and you still want to argue. It’s no wonder today’s churches are in such a sad spiritual state and filled with apostasy. If you churchgoers and Christians would just read God’s word and take what God gives instead of trying to force your man-made views on God’s word to exalt yourselves, churches would not be arguing over the ungodly things (such as ordaining gay clergy or which Bible version is better or which preacher is better or which worship music is better) and the focus would be on trying to move the church to spiritual maturity and to preach the true gospel. By hardening your hearts instead of changing to match your views to God’s, you are practically begging for God’s judgment to come like those churches in Revelation did. And we have the audacity to wonder why church attendance fluctuates so much.
God forgive us for resisting your Holy Spirit and quenching him with our fleshly nature and ways of thinking.
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Even if the fact that they ministering spirits does not mean they are below us. It does not support the idea that you put out there that because angels fly back and forth from heaven or walk through walls make them higher. A different ability does not mean a higher rank or authority. Your argument was on scripture to begin with, no matter if I agree or dis agree, but then you jumped to this kind of non-scriptural reasoning. That was my point. I never argued bible versions or gay ministers. This is the kind of arguing the world sees to often in the church. If I sounded offensive in my first post, it was not my intent. It is hard to express tone of voice when typing. I will leave this here as I feel it may not be fruitful to pursue.
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I know you weren’t arguing bible versions, etc. I used your argument as an example of why churches and believers get sidetracked. We get caught up in useless, unbiblical doctrines and cling to them instead of clinging to the truths in God’s word. My reasoning is based on what the scriptures say. If you look at the first comment I made about angels’ powers, I said that humans do not have these abilities within themselves to do the things angels do. It is within the natural abilities of angels to do their supernatural actions. We as humans have to rely on God to grant us those abilities if he chooses to do them through us.
Angels’ abilities in contrast to human abilities DOES speak of their authority. Does a human have the power to hurt an angel’s body? No. Do angels have the power to physically hurt humans? Yes. An angel was ready to strike Balaam dead when he was on his way to see Balak about cursing Israel. An angel struck Herod dead when the people began to worship him as a god in Acts. An angel struck dead 185,000 Assyrians in 2 Kings when they encamped against Judah. An angel of the Lord struck down hundreds in Jerusalem when David in his vain pride took a census of Israel in 1 Chron. 21. But nowhere in the scriptures do we find a human doing that type of harm to an angel.
Even the knowledge an angel has is greater than ours. Throughout scripture we see angels enlightening humans about God’s plans or what they should do in certain situations or the meanings of the visions they’re having, from Hagar who was evicted into the wilderness by Sarah and needed an angel to encourage her about her son’s future, to Zechariah who had to get interpretations of his visions from an angel, to John who needed help from angels to understand the visions in Revelation.
And you forgot about Psalm 91:11 “For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.” The word “charge” here refers to the command or orders they have over us given to them by God. It’s very similar to the military’s idea of officers having charge over subordinate soldiers.
So angels’ abilities are verification of what the scriptures teach us about how they are higher than us.
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And one more thought, your argument that “A different ability does not mean a higher rank or authority” does not hold up to scrutiny. Why did Jesus point out that we could believe in his lordship based on his works in John 14:11? So his abilities proved he was Lord, just like angels’ abilities prove they are higher than us and my original example of them flying from heaven to earth was just one of the many examples. Although you attempted to make light of it, it is accurate and scriptural. Now that I have come up with more examples in my comment right before this one, I hope you are satisfied with what I’m saying.
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How do you know this? Genesis was silent about this but we can see
Examples in the New Testament where Jesus was able to teleport and
Pass thru walls in his post resurrection human body. Philip was able to teleport
As well powered by the Spirit. If Adam and Eve had the Spirit of God in the prior
To the fall, couldn’t they have done the same?
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Well thank you for your time. It was a pleasure talking with you. And I will not be one to argue over God’s word. But I just can’t get over what you said about the King James version of the Bible giving the right translation of the word angels in Psalms. I did not realize that all of the people including the apostles were wrong. I thought the Bible said that all of the writers of the Bible were led by the Holy Ghost to write what they did, not just King James. When was the King James version written? 1511?-1611? Any way may God richly bless you.
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Ronnie,
I’m glad you left your comments. I just wanted to clarify a couple of things. King James commissioned a group of scholars to gather the most reliable manuscripts (the Masoretic text, Textus Receptus) to compile the KJV. Neither he nor any of his chosen scholars wrote the Bible, they just translated what the prophets and apostles had already written.
Other versions used corrupted manuscripts where many deletions and additions of words had been made. The KJV got the words of the apostles correct while other versions mistranslated many of their sayings. This is why there is confusion about the scriptures in the Psalms and Hebrews that I highlighted in this post. The correct word is “angels” and the KJV got the translation correct in agreement with what the psalmist and writer of Hebrews said.
The doctrine of man being a little lower than God got its start in the garden of Eden when the serpent told Eve about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, “For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods…” [Genesis 3:5]
Ever since that day, man has sought to elevate himself in the same way that Lucifer sought to elevate himself higher than where God intended for him to be. This is the root of the false doctrine that man is a little lower than God and the doctrine really spread after less reliable, newer versions of the Bible became prominent. The doctrine was first embraced in modern times by the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement.
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Thank you. May God truly bless you.
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Hey I’m a little behind, but I for one am glad I am a man and not an angel even if they are higher. Unlike angels I can experience grace, forgiveness and and freedom in Christ! To be saved through the blood of Jesus Christ and to know it beyond all doubt in your heart, is something that nothing can compare to! I could never trade that for anything! Those were just my thoughts after reading through the comments.
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Amen, Steven. You got it brother. And what no one has mentioned is that human nature has been elevated to a superior place in Christ. Christ has gained more for man than Adam lost ! We are not just brought back to where we were in Adam, but have even more in Christ. We cannot fall again, we have a confirmed righteousness. Christ our Representative Head has met all the terms and conditions of the Covenant. We shall see Him (ie the dear Son of God our blessed Saviour) face to face. In Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily !! Our Lord is God and man. Trevor, England
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Ps ch 8, Heb ch 2 and many other scriptures that are out there mean that we are indeed a little lower that God and His Angels. But one thing I know is this, that I will in no way say that God’s Word is not true. It is true and will always be, but in Eph ch 2:6 and 1:20 states that I’m seated with Christ in heavenly places or to paraphrase (that just as Christ is seated next to the Father there I am also) that is where I can see that we are indeed under God and higher than the Angels. But really It does not matter to a certain degreee because we are there in the Heavenly places and that we are on the same team Amen!
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[But really It does not matter to a certain degreee…we are on the same team]
We may be on the same team, but it definitely DOES matter what we teach since doctrine is important in that it shows us how we should see ourselves, how we perceive others, and how we perceive God (what pleases him or displeases him).
Yes, we are seated with Christ in heavenly places, but this position still does not make us superior to angels. In the spirit realm we also know, according to scripture, that there are cherubim whose wings go over God’s mercy seat, but their physical position does not mean they are superior to God.
No matter what you argue, you still can’t get around the fact that Christ himself said that we will be “equal” to the angels in the resurrection. That’s as high as we’ll ever get.
This false doctrine of us being higher than the angels is rooted in ungodly pride. If you don’t believe me, just go to any church that preaches this doctrine. Most of them are charismatic or pentecostal and all you have to do is look around and look behind the scenes at how they operate. You’ll see pride, pride, and more pride! They strive with each other out of pride. They seek to get in good with men or women who are placed on pedestals to exalt themselves in their pride. They will snub people not in their cliques out of pride.
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Translators of the NASB were confused about who God really is, and how He compares to man.
God is infinite, and there is no such thing as “a little less infinite,” or “a little more infinite.”
Man was created a little lower than angels, and Jesus was (in His humanity) created a little lower than angels, and Hebrews 2:9 explains why:
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
In what respect are we lower than the angels? At least in this one; we die, angels do not.
Modern translators have been nibbling at the KJV for years, and have misled many good Christians into believing much of their nonsense. Even some Fundamental Christians of believing the KJV is more accurate than some of the Originals. The truth is, copies of the Originals have been perverted, and the KJV translators recognized that, and acted accordingly.
Mac
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I am going with Mike on this all the way! Check out
Hebrews 1:14 and 1 Corinthians 6:3!! Thanks Mike!
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The context of Hebrews 1 is that the Lord Jesus Christ is superior to the angels and then it quotes all of the prophecies in the Old Testament that show Christ is over the angels. Then the chapter concludes in v. 14 by stating angels are ministering spirits, not agents of salvation like Christ, who minister to those of us who inherit salvation. This in no way has anything to do with saying saints are superior to angels, because we’re not.
The angels we as saints will judge in 1 Corinthians 6:3 are the angels who kept not their first estate, i.e. the fallen angels. There is no need for us to judge the heavenly angels who are obedient to God. Fallen angels received a demotion when they rebelled against God and are considered below the saints according to the scriptures. That’s why we can command them to flee in the name of the Lord Jesus. Jesus has given us power over them.
So the doctrine of the pentecostals/charismatics claiming we are superior to the heavenly angels is incorrect according to the scriptures. You can misquote and twist scripture to your personal satisfaction all you want to try to promote your false doctrine, but at the end of the day (resurrection day to be precise) we will still be equal to the heavenly angels just like Christ said we would be.
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Hey Harry, just a note on the topic at hand. You are deffinitely Biblicaly right in your conclusion that mankind is below angels. I support you 100% in this area. Just be careful not to mock Pentecostals as though they do not have their doctrines straight. In case you haven’t figured it out I am Pentecostal in doctrine and experience. I still take the Bible as the word of God and allow it to teach me. Oh by the way, great observation on the Masoretic text. It is the most reliable but I guess that is another topic for another time. Keep looking toward the Eastern sky! (He could come back at any moment)
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Thanks, Aaron, for your comment.
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Hey I’m a charismatic! And I absolutely agree with Harry.
Contextually the KJV is right in its rendering.
Blessings
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Charasmatic or Pentecostal???? you may choose to categorise me as a pentecostal but I do not see such a label necessary and the claim that we are superior to the heavenly angels and we are little gods is not peculiar to charasmatics or pentecostals but to me it is clear that for those who believe this doctrine there is error in understanding scripture. I have always been taught to prayerfully study the word of God and to interpret scripture with scripture having a teachable spirit which I endevour to do. not merely taking someone else’s view on a subject. I have discussed this topic along with predestination with a number of people recently who do not appear to have any solid biblical view which I find quite disturbing.
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Elohim cannot in any context be translted as angels. It is the plural of El – Trinity. Man was created as Son of God. The genealogy of Jesus ends up with Adam Son of God. Thus man was indeed created a little lower than Gods in the sense they are children of the father who partakes of the Divinity with God. However because of the fall ( because he has the same freedom of choice as a son) he lost the status of sonship until he matures and is ready for the position with the Father. UNtil that time man was put under the tutorship of Angels.
Heb 2:5-7 For not unto angels did he subject the world to come, whereof we speak. But one hath somewhere testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? Or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels;
So today man is seen a little lower than angels until they receive the Spirit of Sonship.
1Co 2:9 but as it is written, Things which eye saw not, and ear heard not, And which entered not into the heart of man, Whatsoever things God prepared for them that love him.
The redeemed will be more than equal to the angels. Redeemed will judge the angels.
In order to redeem sons from the position equal to a slave being taught by a slave, Christ himself took the form lower than the angels that those who are in Christ will regain the lost position and will partake the Divinity with Jesus.
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Once again, you have proven that those who hold to this doctrine have to twist the scriptures to validate their point. The context of Hebrews 2 is to show how the Lord Jesus Christ is superior to angelic beings. This is why none of the angels had the world subjected to them. The Lord Jesus Christ had the world subjected to him, as attested to in Hebrews 2:5-7, which you twisted to make it seem like it was talking about believers. And 1 Corinthians 2:9 has nothing at all to do with the false doctrine of man being a little lower than God.
Hebrews 2:8-9 continues the thought started in Hebrews 2:5-7 and you conveniently left it out to promote your deception–“Thou hast put all things in subjection under his [Jesus’] feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him [Jesus], he left nothing that is not put under him [Jesus]. But now we see not yet all things put under him [Jesus]. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”
So Hebrews 2, which is quoting and explaining Psalm 8 as a Messianic psalm, shows that “elohim” can indeed be translated “angels.” If “elohim” can be a word that is translated for false “gods” (as it is plenty of times in the Old Testament), and these false gods are really fallen angels (devils) as explained in the scripture, then why can’t “elohim” be also used to refer to good angels?
As I stated before, this “man-is-a-little-lower-than-God” doctrine was established in the Garden of Eden by the Serpent when he said to Eve, “For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods [elohim], knowing good and evil.” [Genesis 3:5]. And ever since that day, men who seek to elevate themselves above and beyond where God intended have held to this doctrine, including “Christians” who hold to the false “man-is-a-little-lower-than-God” doctrine. Satan tried to exalt himself to take God’s throne and is now using this doctrine in the church to deceive believers into buying into his doctrine.
Good angels get their instructions only from God himself. This is why they ascend and descend to and from heaven based on Christ’s orders as stated in the gospel of John. Good angels minister to us because that is what they are directed by the Lord to do. Since they only answer to God, there is no need for the redeemed to judge them. Evil angels on the other hand have not received their final judgment. God “cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment,” [2 Peter 2:4]. “And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly,” [Romans 16:20]. This tells us that evil angels will be lower than the saints and the angels that the saints will judge are those who rebelled in heaven.
“Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.”
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Hary I would like to hear your thought concerning Adam Clarkes Commentary on Psalm 8 and Hebrews 2.
“Verse 7. Thou madest him a little lower than the angels] We must again have recourse to the original from which this quotation is made: Myhlam jem whroxtw vattechasserehu meat meelohim. If this be spoken of man as he came out of the hands of his Maker, it places him at the head of all God’s works; for literally translated it is: Thou hast made him less than God. And this is proved by his being made in the image and likeness of God, which is spoken of no other creature either in heaven or earth; and it is very likely that in his original creation he stood at the head of all the works of God, and the next to his Maker. This sentiment is well expressed in the following lines, part of a paraphrase on this psalm, by the Rev. C. Wesley:-
“Him with glorious majesty
Thy grace vouchsafed to crown:
Transcript of the One in Three,
He in thine image shone.
Foremost of created things,
Head of all thy works he stood;
Nearest the great King of kings,
And little less than God.”
If we take the words as referring to Jesus Christ, then they must be understood as pointing out the time of his humiliation, as in Heb 2:9; and the little lower, bracu ti, in both verses, must mean for a short time, or a little while, as is very properly inserted among our marginal readings. Adam was originally made higher than the angels, but by sin he is now brought low, and subjected to death; for the angelic nature is not mortal. Thus, taking the words in their common acceptation, man in his present state may be said to be lessened below the angels. Jesus Christ, as the eternal Logos, or God with God, could not die, therefore a body was prepared for him; and thus bracu ti, for a short while, he was made lower than the angels, that he might be capable of suffering death. And indeed the whole of the passage suits him better than it does any of the children of men, or than even Adam himself in a state of innocence; for it is only under the feet of Jesus that all things are put in subjection, and it was in consequence of his humiliation that he had a name above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, Php 2:9-11. Therefore he must be infinitely higher than the angels, for they, as well as all the things in heaven, bow in subjection to him.
Thou crownedst him with glory and honour] This was strictly true of Adam in his state of innocence, for he was set over all things in this lower world; all sheep and oxen, the beasts of the field, the fowl of the air, the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth over the paths of the seas, Ps 8:7,8. So far all this perfectly applies to Adam; but it is evident the apostle takes all in a much higher sense, that of universal dominion; and hence he says, he left nothing that is not put under him. These verses, collated with the above passage from the Epistle to the Philippians, mutually illustrate each other. And the crowning Christ with glory and honour must refer to his exaltation after his resurrection, in which, as the victorious Messiah, he had all power given to him in heaven and earth. And although we do not yet see all things put under him, for evil men, and evil spirits, are only under the subjection of control, yet we look forward to that time when the whole world shall be bowed to his sway, and when the stone cut out of the mountain without hands shall become great, and fill the whole earth. What was never true of the first Adam, even in his most exalted state, is true of the second Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ; and to him, and to him alone, it is most evident that the apostle applies these things; and thus he is higher than the angels, who never had nor can have such dominion and consequent glory.”
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This commentary is wrong on a couple of points.
[it is very likely that in his original creation he stood at the head of all the works of God, and the next to his Maker]
If this were the case, why was man confined to Earth? Why couldn’t he travel back and forth to heaven like the angels could? Why was it that man was not created before the angels? Why didn’t Adam and Eve have supernatural strength?
Based on the context of scripture from Genesis to Revelation, man was never higher than the angels and Psalms 8 translates correctly the word “elohim” as “angels.” The word “God” is not the only correct translation for “elohim.”
And have we forgotten Psalm 91 which tells us that God has given angels charge over the believers to keep us in all our ways? The word charge (tsava in Hebrew) means they are given command and are appointed over us by God to protect us. It means they have a higher position than us, but not in a way where we would worship or bow down to them.
[Adam was originally made higher than the angels, but by sin he is now brought low, and subjected to death]
Not true. Adam was never made higher than the angels. His physical position of being made from the dust of the earth proves that. The dust of the earth is a ginormously long distance from where the third heaven is.
The only reason this point is debated at all is that people who hold to this doctrine question what the Lord Jesus clearly said. And since Jesus is the Word and spoke God’s word, they are doubting God’s word. If Jesus is the author & finisher of our faith, the beginning & the end, the Alpha & Omega, the first & the last, then when he says that man will be equal to the angels in the resurrection, that’s what he meant and that’s what’s going to happen.
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We don’t want to confuse potential equality of our being, with equality of status.
Angels are spiritual and not flesh. In the future, we are supposed to be more spiritual, and it that aspect there would be more equality.
In Psalms, the verse about man being lower than “Elohim” can refer to both mankind and to Jesus, since Jesus was also present on earth with a manly body.
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[In Psalms, the verse about man being lower than “Elohim” can refer to both mankind and to Jesus, since Jesus was also present on earth with a manly body.]
Correct. And when we receive our resurrected, spiritual bodies, they will be like Christ’s body and we will reign with Christ, but we will be equal in status to angels.
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I think some people get confused on the higher/lower status of humans vs. angels because there may be talking at crosspoints here.
Humans are “lower” in the sense that we cannot operate in the same functions/powers/dimensions that angels presently do.
Humans are “higher” in that we are the only creation of which it is said to be made in the IMAGE of Almighty God.
Humans also have a secondary value – the blood of Jesus was spilled for us. We have been offered a path to redemtion which no angelic being has been offered.
Angels which sinned were resigned to judgment with no 2nd chance. That is why they desire to look into what we’ve got (see 1 Peter 1:12)
So while angels are “higher” in certain functions and abilities, humans have been declared by God as inestimably MORE valuable in that we carry His image, and were offered Redemption.
In regards to humans being “equals” with angels in heaven, I’m not sure any angels are offered the promise of Rev. 3:21
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I don’t think our redemption shows that we are MORE valuable than angels as much as it shows that we are important enough for God that he wants to save us and also that he is the only one with the ultimate power to take something made from dust and exalt it to something greater than what it was for his own glory.
Our being made in God’s image still doesn’t make us higher than angels. It just means we are different than them. What the angels desire to look into is stated in 1 Peter 1:12 and has to do with the power God exhibits through the Holy Ghost when the gospel is preached.
Even when we take Rev. 3:21 into account, we are still not higher than angels. We are allowed to sit on the throne, but angels only worship God and 1 Peter 3:22 says they are only subject to Christ. So once again we come back to the fact that we are equal and not higher than angels.
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The Father created Angels, and the Father created us.
We all exist to serve him and his purpose for us.
I think that is all we need to focus on is are we doing what our Father wants us to do today? How can we serve and fulfill God’s plan and will for us each and every day we are here? Nothing and no one is more valuable. God had a plan and reason for each one of us, angels and humans alike. He knew who would follow him and who would betray him. Even those who don’t believe are already in the Lords plan for this world. He has given us free will to decide who we will follow, but he already knows who his own are.
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With this discussion over the status of Christ, angels and men, I see there is sin in the mist of the arguements. We are not to argue over God’s word. Satan is the fallen angel who is prince of the air and somehow in our humanness we have given him dominion over God’s word in our interpretations of what God meant. I will pray that we thank God for our salvation through Christ and ask Him to forgive us!
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I wish it wasn’t necessary to argue over God’s word, but because we humans are sinful creatures, as you point out, and because we allow the meaning of God’s word to become skewed, arguments become necessary. Most of the writings in the Bible came about because God needed to address what he wanted in contrast to what humans wanted. And this always caused arguments to arise. Prophets like Moses, Isaiah, and Jeremiah often had arguments over God’s word because of the hardness of men’s hearts against God and their detractors often attacked them with accusations that these true prophets did not speak for God. Even Jesus and his apostles had arguments with people for the same reason. Arguments come with the territory of preaching the gospel.
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This is a very interesting topic and discussion. I think that the truth might very well lie in the middle of it all. Since sacred mysteries of this sort are possibly hidden from us untill we are capable of understanding it.
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That is why you guys can’t seem to agree on a conclusion.
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The real reason why there is disagreement over this topic is that when we study God’s word, we often read it with eisegesis (making it say what we want it to say) instead of reading it with exegesis (getting out of it what God is really saying). If you notice in the argument, those who expressed opinions against the fact that men are lower than angels even went so far as to disagree with what Jesus said. Could this be because they question God’s word just like Adam and Eve did? The scriptures are crystal clear and not mysterious about which is correct.
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No doubt you are a very educated and a well informed scholar, but inflexible. I know one thing Mr. Gaylord. God’s plan is that man be made into His image and His plan has not changed. There is no plan B. Man was designed to take the Kingdom in Dan. 7:16. Jesus came to rescue man from his fallen state, so that God would continue to spiritually form the man who would have the fullness of Christ. Jesus is the head of this Body. Ephesians 4:11 gives us the promise that this is possible through apostles, prophets, evangelists and teachers. Angels are not made in the image of God. We are in our present state ‘a little lower than angels…’ but when the 42nd generation (Matt.1:, which is a seed – a generation according to Isaiah 53:10. We will be a little lower than the Elohim, which is the plural of Eloha. God is the Father, Jesus is the Son and the Holy Ghost is part of the Elohim. In the end, Jesus will become Jesus and His Christ. His Christ is the seed born out of the woman – the church. in Rev. 12:5.
1Jo.4:17 states that: “…As He is, so are we in this world.” until the appointed time when the sons of God will be manifested, we will not operate in the fullness of Christ. In Christ we are definitely a little lower than the Elohim.
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Everyone who has left their comments to argue against me from the scripture have all quoted scripture out of context. And here you are doing the same thing. You’ve done nothing but give your own private interpretation of the scripture when Peter tells us “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation,” 2 Peter 1:20. That’s a basic doctrine of understanding scripture which is why Peter said “Know this first.” I’ve already covered thoroughly the meaning of elohim. It is a word defined by the context in which it is used and you’ve stripped it of context so you can have your private interpretation. You’ve wrested the scriptures and “they that are unlearned and unstable wrest…the scriptures, unto their own destruction,” 2 Peter 3:16.
I’ve given three witnesses from the scriptures with their correct context to come to the conclusion I’ve reached and to avoid any private interpretation. And the previous commenter “Perez” revealed the true goal of the false teaching you believe in. The ultimate goal is really that you want to be worshiped like God is worshiped. You want to be a god. And that’s what’s being taught in the “word faith” movement. That since God made things to reproduce after their kind, he set the example when the Godhead got together to make man after his own kind. Therefore, man was meant to be the god-kind. I’ve heard such false words firsthand from the mouth of Creflo Dollar.
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Mr.Gaylord. What exactly are you disagreeing with? Do you disagree that God is in the process of bringing forth a seed – a son- in His image? Do you disagree that Isaiah said that Jesus shall see His seed? Who is the 42nd generation? Which part of scripture do you wish to cut out of the Holy Bible.
Be informed that angels are a different entity from man. They have their role to play and those that did not fall from their position continue to minister to man in his incomplete state spiritually. You continue to describe man’s state in the flesh, but you are unable to perceive man in the complete spiritual state meant for him from before the foundation of the world.
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You misquoted 1 John 4:17 to promote your private interpretation. You claimed “…as he is, so are we in this world” was talking about us being a little lower than God when the actual context of that scripture was talking about us showing forth God’s love. Here’s the context–“Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world,” 1 John 4:15-17. We are to dwell in love since God dwells in us and we dwell in him. We dwell in God, but this doesn’t mean we are gods or are a little lower than God. It means we are God’s temple.
Daniel 7:18 says we will take the kingdom, which if you compare scripture with scripture, it means we will rule & reign with Christ. It doesn’t mean we will be equal to or a little lower than Christ to be higher than the angels. So you misinterpreted scripture to give your own private interpretation.
You also took Isaiah 53:10 out of context–“Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.” Let’s apply the rules of grammar to this scripture. Who is the subject of it? From the first phrase, we learn the LORD is the subject. This refers to God the Father and he remains the subject in every phrase of this scripture. Now who is the object of the sentence, the recipient of the Father’s actions? The object is the Lord Jesus. This is true throughout this scripture. The Father bruises him, the Son. The Father puts him, the Son, to grief. The Father makes him, the Son, an offering for sin. The Father shall see his seed, the Son–which speaks of Christ’s physical appearance as God’s offspring as a human. The word seed here is the singular, not the plural, and it isn’t referring to believers. The Father shall prolong the Son’s days, and so on. So, again, you gave your private interpretation to twist this into saying we are a little lower than God.
If anyone’s cutting things out of the Bible, it’s you. Matthew 1:17 is simply Jesus’ human lineage and has nothing to do with his followers being the “42nd generation.” Your own private interpretations cannot tear down what the scriptures really say as I highlighted in my post. Why do ye not understand the Lord’s speech? Even because ye cannot hear his word [John 8:43]. If you were able to hear his word, you would know Jesus said that it is only at the time of the resurrection that we will become equal to the angels in our status. What you’ve described is your errant wish that man become a god or demigod like in the ancient Greek myths. Psalm 8 & Hebrews 2 are in perfect agreement that man in his original form before the fall was made a little lower than the angels. Yet you put your private interpretations above God’s holy, inerrant word. You think more highly of yourself than you ought to think.
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It is a waste of time discussing scripture with you. One scripture. You certainly have difficulty with is Isaiah 53. my learned friend: In Gal.3:16 “Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to SEEDSnd to they seed, which is Christ. Gal.4, Paul speaks of our faith in Jesus Christ.In v. 29 he states: “And if you be Christ’s then are ye Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise. My friend. He was speaking to the Galatians who then cam to believe in Christ like Christians of any era.
It is false humility, to say that we are something other than what God said in the Bible. Our goal is to be transformed into the full image of Christ the Son of God.
One thing for sure I have no doubt that Satan knows the Bible more than I do, but he can never make me doubt that I am a little lower than the Elohim. You may choose to be a little lower than the angels but I am created in the image of God the Father and am growing into sonship or a mature son to take the Kingdom and give it to Jesus, who is waiting for the restoration of all things.
Yes we are God’s temple, and at the same time “In Him we live and move and have our being.
2Cor.5:19 “To wit. that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself…”
We are not equal with God, neither are we equal with Jesus or the Holy Spirit for that matter, but we are His seed. We have His DNA. and this makes us a little lower than Him (the Elohim) The three-in-One..
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It’s only a waste of time because you are so puffed up in your pride that you want to exalt yourself and you have an unteachable spirit that teaches for doctrines the commandments of men. You use cunning craftiness, whereby you lie in wait to deceive. You try to link Isaiah 53, a prophecy strictly about God in the flesh, Jesus Christ, with Galatians 3:16 which is a totally different prophecy in a totally different context.
The newer Bible versions, which corrupt the word of God, have deceived you and have contradicted themselves. God never contradicts himself, for that would make him a transgressor. Those newer corrupt Bible versions use “a little lower than God” in Psalm 8, then in the New Testament they say Jesus was “a little lower than the angels” in Hebrews 2. So if mankind is to be a little lower than God in Psalm 8, but Jesus is made a little lower than the angels in Hebrews, that means mankind is exalted above the Lord. Only Satan would want such a thing. He is the author of confusion and has certainly succeeded in confusing people like you about these scriptures. On the other hand, the kjv translated both Psalm 8 and Hebrews as “a little lower than the angels” because that is what man was in his original state and that’s why Christ had to be made “a little lower than the angels” to be like his brethren. But in the glorious future God has prepared for his saints, “they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection,” Luke 20:35-36.
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Hello Harry,
Well all i can say is that even if you are right or wrong in your explanation of this scripture, i absolutely do not agree with your mode, tone and manner by which you have done so. We as Christians have a mandate to preach the gospel (the good news of redemption for the sinners by salvation through Jesus Christ) to all nations, experience in doing this has pointed me to the fact that the unsaved will not easily or immediately understand the message we are passing across and so need to patiently make them understand.
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ellvee, you have the right to your opinion. However, just because you don’t like my mode, tone, or manner doesn’t mean I’m wrong in how my message is conveyed. So many Christians nowadays believe we’re supposed to talk barely above a whisper and that we should walk away from arguments and that we should avoid offending people. In other words they prefer an effeminate version of male Christians. This is why some men are turned off by church. Preaching the gospel is automatically offensive to unbelievers no matter what mode, tone, or manner you use.
1 Corinthians 12:4-6 says Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
But aside from that, you overlooked one thing in your comment. The people who left dissenting comments claimed to be Christians, not unbelievers. They’re already familiar with the gospel.
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If angels are indeed higher than us, than that would mean Satan had domnion over us, because Satan is an Angel. However, we know from the scriptures that we have authority over Satan through the blood of Jesus. The blood is what makes us higher than the angels, not by our own doing or by who we are. Whoever is a TRUE child of God and beleives in the blood, then when God looks upon us He sees a refelection, because he made us in his own image. And ss far as the power! The power is waiting for us, just as in ACTS and Corinthians. The time is now Jesus is returning soon and we will need to have faith in the blood to access the power.
Smith Wiglesworth is a great example of somone who understood how to operate in the supernatural. I have yet to come across any scriptures of the Angels raising anyone from the dead. But if we would dare to believe in the power of the blood. Jesus said we were to do greater works than he because he goes to his father.
And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mathew (16;17-18)
Jesus never told us to pray to Angels are that they would heal us or protect us. They have there work to do as we have ours to do, that is why we are not powerless.
Love makes the gifts work, do the dos instead of focusing on not doing the donts. If you are in Christ you cant sin. Satans number one goal is not to get us to just sin, but to get us out of love each and every day. God is love, therfore if you are in love then you are in God. And where God is there is power and ability, and all things are possible.
It is time to wake up! We are more than conqurers! God has not stoped operating, we have!
Stay in love no matter what! It is not worth getting out of love and being powerless.
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Your argument twists the scriptures. Satan & his angels are fallen angels which means they are not the heavenly angels Jesus was referring to in the scripture I quoted. As believers in Jesus Christ we know the Bible tells us Satan & his fallen angels will be placed under our feet & we will be their judges because they kept not their first estate. Nice try @ misconstruing my words, but your argument fails because Jesus’ words still stand which say we will be “equal to” the angels in heaven. Funny how people arguing against the truth in the scripture infuse their own understanding into it to get out of it what suits their own fancy.
If you looked at the whole Bible, you would know angels have the power to heal and to make people sick enough to die. And I never said believers were powerless.
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In the new testament their is no evidence of angels killing or healing anyone,because he has enpowered us by the blood of Jesus. Im not trying to twist the scriptures. I have read where Jesus says “and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.”
It clearly says that man will be like Angels! In what way however? I strongly believe that He is talking about the physical state of man, in that our bodies will no longer be flesh and blood.
Im sure you have read the whole parable, and in their the desciples are asking Jesus about a widows situation. Basically trying to stump Jesus in tricky scenrios.
I have to beleive from the parable that He was telling his disciples not to be concerned with the troubles of the this world and what you leave behind.There are more worlds than one. A present visible world, and a future unseen world and let every one compare this world and that world, and give the preference in his thoughts and cares to that which deserves them. So my brother let us focus our energy on helping one another in preperation of the return of Jesus.
Why is it important to you that you focus on humans being lower than Angels, because the “context” of the sriptures do not show that. You cant just read one verse you have to read before and after.
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[In the new testament their is no evidence of angels killing or healing anyone]
Really? Then I guess you haven’t read Acts 12 where the angel of the Lord struck Herod Agrippa I dead with worms when the people worshiped him. You also must not have read John 5 where an angel was known to visit the pool of Bethesda to heal the first person who would get in after he stirred the waters.
[I strongly believe that He is talking about the physical state of man, in that our bodies will no longer be flesh and blood.]
Our physical state will be like Christ’s. 1 John 3 says “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” When Christ was asked about marriage in heaven, that deals with what our role will be, and not our physical state. Our role will not be getting married but to be equal to the angels in serving Christ the same way they serve Christ. Our role will be to reign with Christ also, but in that role we will not be higher than angels.
[Why is it important to you that you focus on humans being lower than Angels]
Why is it so important for you to focus on trying to tear down what I’ve said? The context and content of the scriptures, as I’ve shown, tell the truth of what I’ve said. I address it because Christians use this idea to puff themselves up in their pride.
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I agree with you. In these last days we need to know that the same power that rested with Jesus also rest within the believer as well. So in escence we should be confident in what the blood of Jesus has acomplished…..
WE ARE LIVING IN REVELATIONS! WE MUST RELY ON THE HOLY GHOST AND THE BLOOD!
There is a thin line between pride and confidence in who we are through the blood of Jesus. If we can take pride in our country we should also have a pride in what the blood has made us, which is worthy to go before God.
But trust me when i tell you this I understand where you are coming from.
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Wow!!! How excellent is the name of Jesus; Harry and others you have helpped me quite a bit. God said “ask and it shall be given, seek and ye shall find”. I was looking for answers, Thanks very much Harry
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I have some Questions to Harry. I have carefully read all your great comments and I am not writing this to blindly criticize or oppose what you said. But I am still struggling to understand. As you said, If the first Adam was originally created lower than the angels and after the fall this man(humanity) fall down further than his previous position. Then Christ, the last Adam came and became lower than the angels to redeem or restore back the first Adam to his original position.
Now as you said, if Luke 20:36 is talking about our future position, which we will receive or attain because of our salvation, How can we be equal to angels after our salvation and resurrection when we were never equal to them in our original creation/position? Does not redeemtion or restoration mean to be brought back or restored back to our original state and purpose? I am thinking that there must be something lost because of the fall and the crucial purpose christ came is to restore us back to our lost destiny
Well, I think Our OT Bible is translated from the OT Hebrew Bible, not from the Greek translation of the OT (The Septuagint or the LXX) but the author of Hebrews is using the Septuagint. Well, I can never dare to say that author of Hebrews was wrong, for Scrpiture is written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, but never by the will of man. (2 Peter 1:19-21). However, the Greek translation of the OT is not written by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It was 70 or 72 scholars who translated it from Hebrews into Greek. Translation could hav some sort of biasedness and some limitation depending on the people who make the translations. So I don’t see any wrong when some other translations like the NASB translate Psalms 8:5 as litle lower than God, unlike the KJV saying angels. Harry, I understand well, your concern that there are people who twist the Scripture to serve their own desire as the apostle Peter tells us(2Peter 3). However, this does not mean that we should refrain from understanding what really God originally intended to humanity and got complete fulfilment in Christ our most precious Lord. Otherwise it could mean twisting the Scripture.
So to make precise my question or point:
First: What was man originally? lower than angels(the holy angels)? Equal to angels? or higher than the angels?
Second: What happened after the fall? I think man became not only more lower than the Holy angels but even lower than the evil angels, right?
Third: What happened after Redemtion? What is the purpose of restoration? to make Equal to the holy angels?To make man Above the devil but lower than the holy angels? Or above both group of the angels, the holy and the fallen? I think the right answer to my third questíon depending on answering rightly my first question: What was man or God’s original purpose for man before the fall? I believe the purpose of redemtion must be the same with the purpose of creation.
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[What was man originally? lower than angels(the holy angels)? Equal to angels? or higher than the angels?]
Man was originally lower than angels which is why Hebrews talks about Jesus being made lower than the angels so he could be like his brethren.
[What happened after the fall? I think man became not only more lower than the Holy angels but even lower than the evil angels, right?]
Man’s fall has to do with his relationship with God, not how he stacks up to angels. Adam & Eve were lower than the good and evil angels in their original state and after the fall.
[What happened after Redemtion? What is the purpose of restoration? to make Equal to the holy angels?To make man Above the devil but lower than the holy angels? Or above both group of the angels, the holy and the fallen?]
When Christ brought us redemption, he restored our original state of spiritual connectedness (fellowship) with the Father. When we are resurrected, we will be equal to the angels in heaven, though our resurrected bodies will be like Christ’s resurrected body–“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is,” 1 John 3:2 ; “And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. …For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality,” [1 Corinthians 15:49-50, 53].
[What was man or God’s original purpose for man before the fall?]
The answer to this is in Genesis 1–“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. …And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.”
We were created to rule over God’s creatures and to procreate. He didn’t create us to lord over each other as we see done today. But we see that through Christ our purpose broadens from our original purposes. We will reign with Christ over the remaining human population who survive the tribulation during the millenial period [Rev. 20:4, 6]. Our purpose will no longer be to procreate. And we will judge the evil angels, another purpose that was not originally ours.
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Dear Harry, I would like also to ask you with great respect about one point you made in one of your comments. Here it is:(The doctrine of man being a little lower than God got its start in the garden of Eden when the serpent told Eve about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, “For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods…” [Genesis 3:5]…..As I stated before, this “man-is-a-little-lower-than-God” doctrine was established in the Garden of Eden by the Serpent when he said to Eve, “For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods [elohim], knowing good and evil.” [Genesis 3:5]. And ever since that day, men who seek to elevate themselves above and beyond where God intended have held to this doctrine, including “Christians” who hold to the false “man-is-a-little-lower-than-God” doctrine. Satan tried to exalt himself to take God’s throne and is now using this doctrine in the church to deceive believers into buying into his doctrine.)
Here is my argumet : If what Psalms 8:5 is saying in the other translations is right than what that the KJV is saying in that particular verse, i.e., man was created originally lower than God but higher than all the other creations of God, including all the angels. Then how comes that a true follower of Christ being accused of following the “doctrine was established in the Garden of Eden by the Serpent …”???
Let me explain my point: If Man was orginally created to be next to God, but after the fall man lost that glorious position, then what is wrong if man claims that glorious position after the greatest redemtion? Does it make him to be in the sin of Genesis 3? If so how?
BTW, if the first Adam was created to be next to God, then what the devil did in Genesis 3 was that he deceived Eve and (the Adam followed her sinful act) that they could be exactly like God, not just next to God as you are saying. Exactly the same sin what Satan himself did (Isaiah 14:12-15). Genesis 3 never say that man desire to be next to God. It says that man was deceived, believing that man could be like God! And this is the original sin of the devil himself!(ISa14). If somebody claims everything Christ restored back by His death ressurection, ascention and His seconding coming, then can we be right ín accusing that person that s/he is following the sin of Genesis 3, as you are saying above?
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I’ve explained all of these questions in previous comments. People have a hard time accepting what I’ve said because they cannot believe that they’ve been taught incorrect doctrine. It’s like Proverbs says, “A man’s ways are always right in his own eyes.” They think that since they grew up in a certain church and adored what their pastors, teachers, and parents told them, then they could not have possibly learned the wrong thing. They tell themselves, “Since I learned this, there’s no way it can be wrong because I never learn things that are spiritually incorrect, so anyone who tells me something different than what I learned has to be wrong.”
The newer versions of the Bible are based on corrupt manuscripts that were tampered with in Alexandria, Egypt by men in ancient times like Origen, Clement, Jerome, and others. They deleted and added words to inject their Neoplatonist ideas based on Plato’s false philosophies. Psalm 8 and Hebrews should say the same thing–man was created a little lower than the angels, not God. The Neoplatonists changed it because they believe man can evolve into being a god. As God said in Isaiah 48 “I will not yield my glory to another.”
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There is a colon (: ) after Luke 35, which should never be ignored. You can check it. Because of these, humans being equal to angels, is only with regard to marriage (not marrying) and their being not dying.
However, in all of your comments it seems to me that you are generalizing everything from this text only and you are trying to say as if the whole Scripture is taking that humans will be equal to angels after resurrection. I disagree!
Matter of fact, the O.T. or in the N.T. never tells us that we will be like angels. If so then that would mean that our Saviour is angel or He came to restore back angels. No!
The entire Bible tells us that we will be like Him! Originally we were created in His very IMAGE and according to His likeness. You can never bring any Scripture, from the entire Bible that Angels are created in God’s IMAGE?! But we humans are!
You are also quoting 1 John 3 and I apologize for saying this again but it seems for me that you are using this text out of its context. That very Scripture speaks that we God’s sons (Now!) and we will be exactly like Him at resurrection. Is our being like Him at resurrection merely in our resurrected body?! If so then what do you say about 1 John 3:1? We are God’s sons now and we being His sons, is not about our body. This is talking about the same sonship that Christ, the son of God Himself have now!
Or do you believe that the angels being sons of God is the same with our sonship / or the sonship Christ have now?
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Thank you, Perez, for proving what I’ve said originally. Toward the end of your argument you state “The entire Bible tells us that we will be like Him! Originally we were created in His very IMAGE and according to His likeness. You can never bring any Scripture, from the entire Bible that Angels are created in God’s IMAGE?!…” Then you go on to say “We are God’s sons now and we being His sons, is not about our body. This is talking about the same sonship that Christ, the son of God Himself have now!” Essentially you are saying that we will be equal to Christ in our status. You are saying we will be equal with God. So this is my “AHA!” moment–thank you for revealing the true doctrine behind your argument.
Adam was made in the image of God. Adam was also called the son of God in Luke 3:38. But was he equal to Christ the Lord? No, he wasn’t. He was God’s son because he was created by God. He was also God’s son in the spiritual relationship they had with each other. Adam was not Christ. They both had humanity, but they did not both have God’s divinity. Therefore, Adam was not God, and neither are we, nor will we ever be. Obviously, you either didn’t really read my comments or you just don’t care what I’ve said, or both. Didn’t you see in the scripture where God clearly says “I will not yield my glory to another”? That includes men, even if they are saved. You are deceived. Being made in God’s image can in no way, shape, or form give us equality with God. God has always existed and no one created him. We, on the other hand are created beings.
Christ’s blood was shed to cleanse us from all sin and to restore our relationship with God that Adam had before the fall. His blood was not shed to make us equal with God. Luke 35 isn’t the only scripture I used. When Jesus used marriage, he used it as one example that we will have the same status as angels and will not be above them. Jesus could have said that in the resurrection we will be like God, because God isn’t married. No one in the Godhead is married. So why didn’t he say in the resurrection we aren’t married or given in marriage but are like God, since he isn’t married or given in marriage? And don’t try to bring up the fact that the church is the bride of Christ because that isn’t what Jesus was addressing here. He said we are not married or given in marriage in the resurrection so he was not speaking of believers as the spiritual bride of Christ. We don’t have intimate relations as someone’s mate in the resurrection. Our status is equal to the angels. That is why he said we will be equal to the angels, not only regarding marriage, but in our status, or pecking order, in heaven.
But as I said, you’ve revealed the true nature of the false teaching of us being a little lower than God in your argument.
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Cool! Do not rush to judge, dear Harry! I think the purpose of this form was for people to be able to express their views and in due time learn from each other. That is at least my expectation.
Dear Harry, let me simply ask you one question: Can you show me one verse either from the O.T. or the N.T. that humans were originally created lower than angels?
If you can do this and proof for me Scripturally then I will really admire that highly!
Thanks!
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I have already proven my point. You have failed to prove yours. The evidence you attempted to present has instead revealed your grave error. You fail to see the truth because of the hardness of your heart and buying into the traditions of men. We are like Christ in that we have a new nature within us created in Christ Jesus. We are considered the righteousness of Christ because of what we have received by God’s grace through Christ’s sacrifice. God considers us sinless like Christ. God calls us his children through Christ. But our state as children of the living God is not entirely like Christ’s sonship. Jesus Christ is the ONLY BEGOTTEN son of the Father because he came directly from the Father and is equal to the Father. That is where our similarities to Christ end. As God said twice in Isaiah “I will not give my glory to another.” But this fact that Christ is the only begotten son of the Father is omitted from the NIV and TNIV, which is probably why you tripped over your argument and bought into the lie you previously presented if that happens to be your “Bible” of choice.
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fellas, this has been a burning issue for me just today, i set down with a sister and she quoted hebrews 2:8, and tried to justify that actually we (man) are higher than the angels,,,,i only had 2 verses in verses Psalm 8:5 and Hebrews2:6-9, can somebody please justify that we are not actually higher than the angels but lower than them?just some more extra verses will do.
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The verses I gave in my post, especially about Jesus saying we would be equal to the angels in heaven @ the resurrection, are good ones. No one can justify arguing against what God in the flesh said. You can also use examples in the scripture about how humans reacted when they encountered angels. For example, Daniel trembled and fell on his face. If humans were greater, wouldn’t it be the opposite? The angel would have fallen before Daniel. Even Abraham bowed before angels that visited him in Genesis out of respect for them. If angels were lower, they would have bowed to him.
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Harry, I have no doubt that you are very knowledgeable about scripture, but you are also very fundamental and unable to move away from the outer court mentality. In 2Cor.1:10 We are instructed that we are delivered, we are being delivered and we shall be delivered. Another translation uses saved instead of delivered. We are going through the process of salvation.You may know a lot of scripture, (and this is very good) but you argue from the level of initial salvation. Man is not to be equated with angels who belong to a different entity. They are meant to be our ministers. When God said “Let us make man into our own image,..” He meant exactly what He said.This why Paul in Eph.4″11-13 reminds us that there is a work being done till we all come in the unity of the faith, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. Man is meant to come into the fullness of Christ. Jesus is the head of this perfect man. All Christians will not be in the first fruits company, In 2Thess. 1:10 Jesus will come and reveal Himself IN His saints. This is the company that will take the Kingdom. Acts 3:21 states that Jesus is held back till the restoration of all things. This is the company which will take the Kingdom from Satan.(Dan. 7:16) Angels comprise a different entity. They have their role to play and this is to minister to our needs. Men bow before angels, in their fleshly state, but when they become perfect, they will definitely be above angels. We are sitted in Christ at the right hand of God in the spirit. Without Jesus Christ, we are nothing, no where close to even angels. “All our righteousness are as filthy rags…” This is why Jesus took our form so that we could be clothed in His righteousness. The Bible says we are joint heirs with Christ.
‘A little below’ or ‘like’ angels indicate stages of our spiritual growth.
God did not instruct to make man in the image of angels, but in His divine image; with His attributes and characteristics. This is why Jesus “is touched with the feelings of our infirmities. We should make comparisons with Jesus Christ our Head and pattern. Not with angels. So if Jesus is the exact image of His Father with His DNA; guess what? Jesus’ son (corporate) has to be like Him. The Bible is consistent. We are a little lower than the Elohim.
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I guess it wasn’t enough that your errors were highlighted in my last response so now you’re back to take another crack at twisting God’s word in the direction you want it to go in. Calling me a fundamentalist doesn’t change your errors and doesn’t allow you to force your pre-conceived notions on the word of God.
The kjv is the only true reliable English translation of God’s word. And the example you give concerning salvation is one example. You falsely claim we are in “the process of salvation.” Salvation is a done deal once a person calls on the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:18 in the false versions says we “are being saved.” In the kjv it says we “are saved.” The process we go through as Christians is the process of putting down our flesh which wars against God’s Spirit in us. We are in the process of pressing toward the mark for the prize of the high calling in Jesus Christ, but our salvation is already done. Those who believe that salvation is a “process” are usually those who believe in the false doctrine that one can lose their salvation. They are usually the ones who falsely base their salvation on their good works. I guess if someone is deceived about being able to save themselves by their works, they would indeed think of themselves as being a god or demigod. So those false doctrines complement one another.
You stated “Man is not to be equated with angels who belong to a different entity,” so basically you’re claiming that Jesus was wrong when he said we would be equal to the angels. When Peter thought he could correct the Lord Jesus by saying Jesus was wrong about predicting his death, the Lord rebuked Peter by saying “Get thee behind me, Satan, for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.” Angels are different beings but that doesn’t mean we will be above them. And saints are sometimes referred to as being angels, such as in the letters to the church in Revelation.
You are so full of pride you can’t even accept what God’s word says. So puffed up when you should humble yourself. So stiff-necked. Just because someone is our minister doesn’t mean they’re beneath us. Jesus said he was our minister, “For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many,” Mark 10:45. Christ still ministers to our needs. So if you cling to your misconception, you’re saying Jesus is beneath us. What blasphemy!
And then you just spew out the same arguments other commenters have made that I already covered. But apparently you weren’t interested in the responses that tore those arguments down & thought if you could repeat the same arguments again, somehow that would make your false assumptions true. We were made in God’s image, but that doesn’t make us higher than angels. We have God’s image in that we are a trinity–body, soul, and spirit. We can create or destroy like him. But being joint heirs with Christ and made in God’s image is not the same, nor ever will be the same, as being a little lower than God.
You can make your hard-hearted, self-exalting arguments all you want, but here’s what Jesus said, “But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.” Those who are saved are worthy to obtain that world and in their resurrection from the dead, not only are they not given in marriage, they cannot die any more. They are EQUAL to the angels, yet in their being EQUAL to the angels, Jesus still calls them the children of God. They are Christ-like, but still EQUAL to the angels in heaven. They are made in God’s image, but they are still EQUAL to the angels. They have resurrected bodies, and when he shall appear, we shall be like him, but in that resurrection, we are EQUAL unto the angels. Not one jot or tittle shall by any means pass from Christ’s words. Embrace your false doctrines all you want, but I personally refuse to be “as many, which corrupt the word of God,” 1 Corinthians 2:17.
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You say the KJV is the only true translation, but you refuse to accept that salvation is a process. Read 2Cor. 1:10 where it is definite that salvation is a process. St Paul says that we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling. He also said that he who runs the race must run all.
It is presumptuous to think you cannot lose your salvation. Hebrews 6:4-6 explains this situation clearly also Heb.10:25-30.We called to stay the course to reach the fullness of Christ. If you already have completed your salvation then you do not have to press towards the mark.
You may ramble as much as you wish the Word of God has not changed. It is plain language: “Let us make man into our own image. Not into the image of angels. Everything else has to line up with this Christ in us the hope of glory. Therefore according to the context you so often remind us of “equal to angels with respect to marriage and death.
Again when Scripture speaks of the fullness of Christ it speaks of Jesus’ seed as you rightly stated body soul and spirit. Angels do not have bodies. In our resurrected state, our bodies will be like Jesus.
Let me warn you however that in discussion, no matter how well informed you may feel you are. Use more respect, discipline and tolerance, so that we can all learn from each other. Goodbye.
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You claim I should use respect, discipline, and tolerance to learn from each other, but you didn’t come here to learn. Based on your other comments you came here to attack my teaching on this issue because it doesn’t match yours. By respect, discipline, and tolerance, you really mean I should be more compromising of the truth so I can more readily accept your false doctrine. Not gonna happen.
And now you have returned to promote another false doctrine–that a person can lose their salvation. It’s no surprise you hold to this false doctrine since in a previous comment I discussed how the false doctrine of man being a little lower than God is tied into the false belief that one can lose their salvation.
Of course, as you have previously done, you have to twist, or wrest, the scriptures to make them say what you want so they can uphold the false doctrines you espouse. The phrase “work out your own salvation” is in Philippians 2, not 2 Corinthians 1. But you as usual stripped the phrase of its context, so here’s the context which renders the content, or meaning–“9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” Obviously, the scripture isn’t talking about salvation being a process, it’s talking about allowing salvation to carry out its goal–obedience to God through good works until the end. Paul is saying, “You have always obeyed God in my presence and now that I’m absent continue to do works that stem from your salvation because it is God working in you to have the will to work and the ability to carry those good works out for his pleasure.”
Other scripture also gives us the context for this one. The book of James preceded Philippians and was circulating through the churches by the time Philippians was written. Faith-based salvation is shown by the works that result from the salvation. James said–What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? …Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. …But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:14,17-18, 20. Therefore, the faith that brings salvation results in godly works. Ephesians 2 tells us, 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. Salvation is a gift given by God’s grace and does not come from works. And ye are saved through faith, NOT ye are in the process of being saved by your works.
Let’s look at Hebrews 6:4-9 to get context–“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation…” Verses 8 & 9 provide the meaning. God’s blessings, including the gospel, are like falling rain. Some earth that receives his rain bring forth herbs that are of good use (i.e. Christians doing good works) and it receives God’s blessings. Then there is earth that receives rain but yields thorns and briers (unbelievers) who bear God’s curse and will be burned. The “once enlightened” who “tasted of the heavenly gift” and “were made partakers of the Holy Ghost” are those who will see Jesus on judgment day that will cry out “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity,” Matthew 7:22-23. They did godly works because the Holy Spirit used them, but they did not do the will of the Father by getting saved. They assumed since God used them, they were saved. They thought their works could save them. The perfect example of this is Judas Iscariot. When Jesus sent his disciples out, they returned rejoicing over the miracles they had done, but Jesus told them in Luke 10 “…rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.” He told them this because Judas was among his disciples who were working miracles, yet his name was not written in heaven. He was doing marvelous works, but wasn’t saved. He fell away and betrayed the Lord.
Now for the context of Hebrews 10–26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.28He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? An individual receives the knowledge of the truth when they hear the gospel. But if they reject that knowledge expecting some other form of salvation, there is no other sacrifice for their sins. Jesus said he that endureth to the end shall be saved. So those who don’t endure to the end (even if for a period of time they were living sanctified outwardly) aren’t saved and never were. In his parable of the sower and the seed, Jesus said these people are “They on the rock… which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away,” Luke 8. They did not receive Christ in their hearts. They only had knowledge in their minds about the gospel and thought it would be nice to try, but the gospel did not get to the root of the problem–which is they needed their wicked hearts cleansed.
You have to compare scripture with scripture to get the whole picture, knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation, which is all that you have submitted. The Bible says salvation is eternal life or is everlasting life. If salvation = eternal life = everlasting life, then how can something that is eternal or everlasting come to an end? Your argument that salvation can be lost means it can end. That goes against the very definition of salvation and you have contradicted yourself. And if you can lose it then how can you ever really know when you lost it? And how can you ever know when you can get it back? The whole concept creates a cloud of perpetual uncertainty and doubt, when 1 John 5 tells us “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life.” A person who believes in the loss of salvation doesn’t know for sure and that flies in the face of God’s holy word. It is also a works-based salvation–meaning you believe you have to fulfill the works of the law to get saved. This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?…He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Galatians 3. The “loss of salvation” doctrine is, therefore, a different gospel according to the facts presented in scripture. It’s a perversion of the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Galatians 1.
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Man is a little lower than the angels by sense, but little lower than God by purpose.
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I strongly and 100% agree with what Harryagaylord is saying. I need no other arguement.
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Thanks, Richard. God bless you.
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Ran across this blog entry by accident in doing some research on a theology of humanity lecture for a college class I teach. It seems to me that the point being made amounts to a “distinction without a difference.” Those mysterious beings called angels are not God or even demi-gods and thus are by definition lower than God. To say that humans are made lower than God is essentially equivalent to saying that humans are lower than angels regardless of how one chooses to translate “elohim” in a particular place. Unless one wants to make some kind of gnostic case for multi-level divine emanations then what is the point of defending the KJV over the NASB? On the other hand, in the book of Hebrews there is ample justification for translating the word as “angels” since a primary theme beginning in the very first verses of the first chapter of Hebrews is the superiority of Christ over all, including angels. I think it a bit misguided to spend time debating this kind of point at all since it has no missional benefit.
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Have recently completed some research on rank, position, purpose of angels with particular focus on mans position to angels. Having read all the entries on the blog, I find value in most comments. However I suspect that whilst this blog was initiated with wholesome spirit -led intentions, some fleshly, prideful arrogance emerged driven by the enemy. It amounted to ” this is MY opinion based on MY interpretation of the scriptures and I AM RIGHT. I found the discussion helpful in many way . Nevertheless can I encourage some self reflection paying attention to what personal payoff does one derive from having such a discussion. The minutiae of the discussion was lost in a multi-faceted power play. Using terms such as “you churchgoers and Christians” highlighted a clear discriminatory leaning. Can we, brothers and sisters in Christ keep the main thing…the main thing…that being the spreading of the message of the inseparable love of God for all and our commission to take the Gospel to all nations. We as man can call on the name of Jesus and be saved. Debating , discussing is necessary for teaching and informing. We should never allow ourselves to be deceived and seduced into the arena of ego-stroking using the word of God to create a platform for intellectual pride. This entry is added in love but also as a rebuke.
Blessed to be a blessing
Karen
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Someone sent this writing which I’d love to share,so somebody can get clear understanding about Psalm 8 and Heb 2 regarding Jesus, Angel and Man
WHO WILL RULE THE WORLD TO COME?
Hebrews 2:1-9
Jesus is Superior to Angels
As you turn to the text let me remind you about what we have seen in chapter 1. The writer says that in former times God spoke in various ways through the prophets but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, namely, Jesus Christ (Hebrews 1:1-2). Jesus is God’s final and decisive Word to the world. He inaugurates the “last days” because after him there is no third period of revelation. Everything God has to say from here on to eternity he says in Jesus. If there is fuller revelation, it will be clarification, amplification and application of the Jesus already revealed in history and in the New Testament.
The writer stresses the utter superiority and uniqueness of Jesus over angels because angels had played a crucial role in mediating the word of God in the Old Testament (Hebrews 2:2). So the writer wants to make sure we do not say, “Well, if God spoke through angels in the Old Testament and spoke in these last days through his Son, then his Son is a great angel.” “Wrong,” the writer says. Jesus is not a big angel. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact representation of God’s nature. He is God the Son (Hebrews 1:8) and, as such, angels worship him (Hebrews 1:6) and do his bidding (Hebrews 1:14).
God Did Not Subject to Angels the World to Come
The conclusion the writer draws from this exalted place of Jesus in the universe as God’s final word to the world is found in Hebrews 2:1. So here is where we will pick up our reading.
For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, 4 God also bearing witness with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will. 5 For He did not subject to angels the world to come, concerning which we are speaking. 6 But one has testified somewhere, saying, “WHAT IS MAN, THAT THOU REMEMBEREST HIM? OR THE SON OF MAN, THAT THOU ART CONCERNED ABOUT HIM? 7 THOU HAST MADE HIM FOR A LITTLE WHILE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS; THOU HAST CROWNED HIM WITH GLORY AND HONOR, AND HAST APPOINTED HIM OVER THE WORKS OF THY HANDS; 8 THOU HAST PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET.” For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him. 9 But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
Our focus this morning is on verses 5-9. Notice that this passage begins with the word “for.” “For” or “because” means that he is giving a basis or defense of what he just said: “For He (= God) did not subject to angels the world to come.” What he had just said was that our salvation is so great and so well attested that it is folly and dangerous to neglect it and drift into indifference. Why? “For God did not subject to angels the world to come concerning which we are speaking.”
How does that make sense? Don’t neglect your great salvation, “For God did not subject to angels the world to come.” What’s at stake here is who rules the world to come. To whom is the age to come subjected? And the answer to this tells us something crucial about how great our salvation is, so that we will not neglect it but give all the closer heed to it.
Keep in mind here that when Hebrews 2:3 speaks of a “great salvation” it is referring not only to all that Christ did by his death and resurrection to purify us from our sins (Hebrews 1:3), but also to all the effects of that in the age to come. We know this because in Hebrews 1:14b the writer says that we “will inherit salvation.” In other words we experience part of it now in the purification of our sins and reconciliation with God, but there is more — O so much more — that we are yet to inherit. And that is what verses 5-9 talk about.
So when verse 5 speaks of “the world to come,” it means the world of our final salvation — the time and the place and the relationships of glory and perfection after Jesus comes a second time and establishes his everlasting kingdom of righteousness and joy. So we can paraphrase like this: don’t neglect your coming great salvation, because (as verse 5 says) in the coming world it is not angels who will have everything in subjection to them — it is not angels who will rule, but . . . But who?
Neglecting So Great a Salvation
Who will rule? What is the answer to that question which makes our salvation so great we would be utter fools to neglect it for mere power plays in this life, or mere possessions, or mere family? Jesus told a parable one time about God’s great salvation and how people neglected it (Luke 14:16-20):
“A certain man was giving a big dinner, and he invited many; 17 and at the dinner hour he sent his slave to say to those who had been invited, ‘Come; for everything is ready now.’ 18 But they all alike began to make excuses. The first one said to him, ‘I have bought a piece of land and I need to go out and look at it; please consider me excused.’ 19 And another one said, ‘I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I am going to try them out; please consider me excused.’ 20 And another one said, ‘I have married a wife, and for that reason I cannot come.'”
This is the classic picture from Jesus of what it means to “neglect so great a salvation.” And notice they are all good things: a piece of land, a yoke of oxen, a wife. And for that, salvation is neglected and lost.
Now in Hebrews 2:5-9 the writer is helping us not to do that. He is laboring with the means appointed by God to save us — namely, with words. He is saying, Don’t neglect this great salvation. Don’t neglect what Christ has purchased for you and what is coming to you in the world to come. For in the world to come it is not to angels that God subjected all things.
To Whom Has he Subjected All Things?
But to whom then? And how is this part of our great salvation?
Verses 6-8 give his answer. Not to angels . . .
But one has testified somewhere [referring to Psalm 8:4-6], saying, “WHAT IS MAN, THAT THOU REMEMBEREST HIM? OR THE SON OF MAN, THAT THOU ART CONCERNED ABOUT HIM? 7 THOU HAST MADE HIM FOR A LITTLE WHILE [or “a little”] LOWER THAN THE ANGELS; THOU HAST CROWNED HIM WITH GLORY AND HONOR, AND HAST APPOINTED HIM OVER THE WORKS OF THY HANDS; 8 THOU HAST PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him.
Who is it then who rules the world to come? In Psalm 8 this passage refers to human beings in general:
“What is man that you remember him? Or the son of man, that you are concerned about him? You have made him a little lower than the angels . . .”
All this refers to the seeming insignificance (“What is man?”), and at the same time the amazing majesty of man (“You have made him a little less, or for a while less, than angels”). David in this Psalm is celebrating the majesty of God by calling attention to the fact that man, who is created in God’s image, is appointed to be the ruler over his creation — “You have put all things in subjection under his feet” (v. 8).
To Humans or to Christ?
Is this what the writer of Hebrews means by these verses? Or is he taking the words of the Psalm and referring them to Christ? Is he saying that man in general is the ruler of creation under God, or is he saying that Christ is the ruler of creation? Or is there some interplay here that involves both?
My approach is to assume that the New Testament writers built on the Old Testament meaning of the Psalms (and other books) unless something in the context forces me to think otherwise. So let’s try that and see if it makes sense out of this passage. I think it does.
The flow of thought would go like this. Hebrews 2:1-4 says that we should be tremendously vigilant over our minds and hearts so that we don’t drift away from the Word of God (1:2; 2:1) and neglect our great salvation (2:3) which is coming to us as an inheritance (1:14), if we hold fast to our confession of hope (3:6, 14; 4:14; 10:23) firm to the end.
Then verses 5-8 say that salvation is indeed very great and worth embracing with joy and perseverance because God did not subject the coming world of our salvation to angels but to humans — to us. This is why our salvation is so great and immeasurably valuable — because in this salvation we are destined for something unspeakably great — we are destined to have all that is in creation put in subjection under our feet. It will all one day serve us completely for a good and joyful end.
But All Things Are Not Subjected to Man Now
There is one massive problem. The writer mentions it at the end of verse 8: “But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.” I think the “him” here still refers to “man” — the human beings referred to in Psalm 8. So the tension builds. How is this problem to be solved? Man is to rule creation under God, but we do not see him ruling.
First the writer tells us to be alert and careful to treasure our great salvation. Then, secondly, he says that the reason he says it is so great and valuable is that in the age to come God has promised to subject the whole creation to his redeemed (saved) people, not to angels. That hope is part of our great salvation — that someday those who have held fast to their great salvation will be revealed as the sons of God and all creation will serve them rather than ravage them the way it does now. They will be victorious over the natural world rather than victims of its floods and hurricanes and tornadoes and diseases and death. But then he says, very realistically, in the third place, wherever you look in the world today, that is not what you see (end of verse 8): all things are not subject to man. Psalm 8 is not now fulfilled in man.
On the contrary, man is subject to the creation in dreadful ways. We try to persuade ourselves that we are masters of our fate, and that since we can make airplanes and radios and televisions and computers and cellular phones and lasers and antibiotics and artificial heart valves and pacemakers and fertilizers and corneas — that we are indeed now the rulers of creation, that all things are subjected to us now.
Man Is Subject to Death
There are many problems with this persuasion. The most glaring one — the one that concerns the writer of Hebrews most is death. Whatever we have been able to conquer as human beings, we have not conquered death. It triumphs everywhere. It strikes babies and teenagers and young adults and mid-lifers and older people. It scoffs at our medicines and surgeries and diets and vitamins and exercise programs. When all is said and done, rocket scientists die. Politicians die. Doctors die. Professors die. Nobel prize winners die. The rich die and the poor die. The good die and the evil die. Farmers die. Bankers die. Carpenters die. Computer programmers die. And preachers die.
Death is not subject to man. And therefore nothing is ultimately subject to us, because it is only a matter of time till it will all be taken away from us, and what we thought we had mastered will be ripped out of our hands. That’s what this writer is painfully aware of at the end of verse 8. The Psalm says that man has a great destiny as the ruler of the creation. This is part of our great salvation. But the reality is we are not conquerors now; we are carcasses — all of us.
So what does the writer then say to rescue our great salvation and the meaning of Psalm 8? Verse 9 gives his answer. Make sure you see it in connection with verse 8 at the end:
“But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him [that is, to man, because, for example, death is so rampant]. 9 But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.”
In other words, we don’t see Psalm 8 fulfilled in ourselves yet. But what we see is Psalm 8 fulfilled in Jesus. We are still subject to death and all kinds of weaknesses and futilities. But Jesus has now passed through weakness and death, and is crowned with glory and honor. He is seated in power at the right hand of God and all his enemies are subjected to him as a footstool for his feet (1:13).
Jesus Tasted Death for Everyone
So how is this part of a great salvation for us? How does this relate to our fulfilling the great hope of Psalm 8 when we will triumph over death and God will put creation in subjection to our rule?
The answer is seen in the words at the end of verse 9: Christ came and suffered and died, “that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.” In other words, Christ was the first man to be restored to the magnificent destiny of Psalm 8. He was crowned with glory and honor over all creation. But he does not enter his glory by himself. Verse 10 says that he “is bringing many sons to glory” — the glory of Psalm 8. Our great salvation is that, united to Jesus, we will experience the fulfillment of Psalm 8 as well. Jesus is the great forerunner of our salvation. What has happened to him will happen to us. Because he tasted death for us, we can be sure that we will share his rule over creation.
The first man — the first Adam — sinned and was subjected to futility and death. The second Adam, Jesus Christ, defeated death and restored the hope of Psalm 8 for all who are in him. You, Christian, who do not neglect this great salvation, you will reign with Christ, and all things will one day be put in subjection to you. All things will serve your great good. All things, without any mixture of pain or sorrow or regret will manifest the glory of God to you and through you as you rule with Christ.
What then shall we do? Put your faith in the promise of this great future grace — that what you see in Christ today will someday be your portion. Fix your eyes on Christ, not on the pain and futility and frustration and sickness and death of this age. They will not have the last word. Christ has conquered death and all the sin and pain that leads to death. Think on him. Consider him. Look to him.
And say to cancer and paralysis and sightless children and airplane-eating Everglades and child-shooting fathers — say to every unsubjected enemy — “Psalm 8 is my destiny! In Christ Jesus all things will one day be put under my feet, and I will rule with him in glory for ever and ever.” Believe that and say that — in the face of every calamity and every frustration in life. Because it is true. Jesus has made it true.
Come fix your eyes on Christ and see
The glory that you soon will be.
Copyright 1997 John Piper
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[Come fix your eyes on Christ and see
The glory that you soon will be.]
Since we’re living in an age of new agers, this statement needs clarification. “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is,” 1 John 3:2. What does it mean to “see him as he is”? It means as Paul said, “now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known,” 1 Corinthians 13:12. We’ll be able to see the Lord clearly without anything like our flesh or popular opinion getting in the way. We’ll automatically know what he wants from us and then carry it out without second-guessing if it’s really his will.
We will indeed reign with Christ. We will indeed have a resurrected body that is like Christ’s. But the glory of our future glorified bodies will not match his glory, for he said “I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another,” Isaiah 42:8. The statement I put in brackets above makes it sound as if we will be Christ’s exact replicas & that’s what new agers teach. We will be like the co-regents of ancient Judah. There would often be a king and his son reigning together, but the father was the main king while the son was the lesser king unless or until the father would become so sick or old & decrepit that he couldn’t be the main king. Jesus will be the main king & we will be subject to him as we reign with him. In the resurrection we will reign with him as the children of God, but we will still be equal to the angels (Luke 20:35, 36). Angels have different ranks (archangel, cherubim, seraphim, etc.) and so will we when we reign with Christ.
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Harry Gaylord,
I believe you have taken Isaiah (48:11 & 42:8) out of context. God was saying that He is not going to mix his Holiness with another (meaning the one’s who are NOT His) Isaiah 48:11 later on talks about how the believer’s need to unite with God under his kingdom. God completely hands over His entire Kingdom to his children…US, the believers and recievers through the blood of Jesus. We are heirs and Jesus is the first, because through Jesus we can have all that he has. He is king of kings and we worship him because he gives us everything. I don’t think the scriptures should be read line by line without understanding exactly what is being spoken about because you will run into these sorts of problems. Scripture always interprets scripture. This scripture you are speaking of actually speaks of how God pulled out of the furnace of affliction the ones that He chose. The ones that He knew would have a heart to fear Him and trust Him. Then, God gives those ones (His children) all the glory of His kingdom, but He refuses to give another (one who is NOT chosen) His glory. Also you said Isaiah 42:8 speaks of God not sharing his Glory with anyone. That again, is taken out of context. This is clearly referring to God not giving His glory to another, that is NOT of HIM and who worships graven images. The entire passage of 42 speaks of God calling specific people to righteousness and that He will only give His glory to them, and not to any other but them. God bless, and I look forward to speaking more on here 🙂
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Nice try, Melanie, but there were several things you failed to mention about the context that gives understanding of what was said in Isaiah 42. Isaiah 42 is a Messianic prophecy. From v. 1 to v. 7, Jehovah prophesies about God the Son, Jesus. He declares the mighty works he would do when he would come as the Lord Jesus. In v. 5, Jehovah declares the mighty works he accomplished when he created the universe & everything in it. Then in the midst of declaring his mighty works he would accomplish through Jesus & mighty works he did at creation, he pauses to declare himself as Jehovah & the great power he highlights in the previous verses are the reason why he will not give his glory to another [v. 8]. That word another refers to any other person that can be named in the universe. Then he ends v. 8 by saying he is including all false gods in his statement also.
Then in v. 9 he picks up again with declaring the mighty works he plans to accomplish. And because of his power, he commands the people of the earth to sing his praises and to “give glory unto the LORD,” [vv. 10-12]. Ultimately, the context of Isaiah 42:1-16 is God showing everyone why he & he alone should be glorified. It has nothing at all to do with anyone else’s glory, including the saints. God is in a class by himself & he will not give his glory to anyone else. He is God, the most powerful being and brightest being in the universe. No one else can come close to the glory he possesses as the first and the last, the Creator of all.
This brings me to Isaiah 48 & its context. God is rebuking Israel’s unfaithfulness to him in Isaiah 48. So to rebuke them he tells them he is the only one who gives true prophecies, not their false gods, & how if it weren’t for him, they would know nothing. He goes on to say in 48:8 that he knew ahead of time they would be treacherous & transgressors from the womb. He tells them how he has the power to completely cut them off, but would refrain for his name’s sake and so he would be praised in restraining himself from their complete destruction. He decides to preserve Israel for his own sake [v. 11] because he does not want his name, the name above all names, to be polluted in the earth as one who does not hold up his covenants. Because he is far superior to Israel as their Creator and far superior to their intellect, to their obstinacy [v. 4], and shares his knowledge in the midst of their lack of knowledge [v. 6], and has true prophecies, and is merciful in the midst of their transgressions, and is the first, the last, the Creator of the universe [vv. 12-13], he will not give his glory to any other [Isaiah 48:11].
So you see, I quoted the verses correctly in the correct context. However, in your haste to glorify saints beyond the boundaries God has set for us and in your desire that the saints be a little lower than God, you tripped up. Please re-read these scriptures with exegesis & not eisegesis & God will show you some wonderful things.
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Harry, enjoying the discussion. Do you think the “isles” mentioned in IS 42: 4,12 are just merely land masses and this is God’s “shorthand” meaning, for all who live on Earth?
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Greg, I believe both scenarios apply. God gets praise from all of creation, whether animate or inanimate. We see this in Psalms like Psalm 96:11-12 where the heavens rejoice, the earth is glad, the seas roar, the field is joyful, and all trees rejoice before the Lord when he will return to judge the world with his righteousness. This is why Paul told us in Romans 8 that presently “we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.” But this is not animism, the belief that everything has a soul. This is simply the fact that God gave everything he created the ability to give him glory in its own way.
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That sounds good, tks!
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Harry, thank you for sharing the truth, even though at times you must have been exasperated!
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Thank you, PJ. It can be exasperating, but it’s worth the hassle.
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PEOPLE PLEASE WHAT’S SO GOOD ABOUT BEING SUPERIOR TO ANGELS??WHAT’S WRONG WITH JUST BEING A SIMPLE MAN FOR NOW SERVING GOD,SAVED AND FORGIVEN BY JESUS??who are we exalting here?the Lord or ourselves??
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Hello Inoloh. We were not created to be “…just a simple man…” we were created to fulfill the purpose of God which is to take back the Kingdom from Satan (Daniel 7::18 KJV. Simple men are regarded as unprofitable servants who will be cast into outer darkness.”(Matt. 8:12,; 22:13; 25:30. The apostle Paul taught in Eph.4: 11-13 our purpose is to be finally perfect unto the “…fullness of Christ.” The prophet Joel describes the army of God as a powerful army, defying all odds.(Joel 2). According to the experts, “meekness is not weakness. To accept our position as mighty warriors in the Lord with Jesus Christ as our Head, is a very serious and powerful task. Not to be taken simply.
My King James Study Bible edited by thirteen prominent predominantly Baptist theologians. I don’t always agree with their interpretations, but I do agree with them that “…as Man, Jesus will rule the earth. He to whom world dominion is divinely committed is greater than the angels, who do not have this privilege.” So, in Jesus Christ, we are greater than angels.
I do agree however that we must not be arrogant and offensive about it. Imagine, we are called kings and priests, a peculiar people. We are called to do exploits in Christ as the Body of Christ. It is not enough to be born again and go to church on Sundays but to search the Word of God for ourselves, ask questions, be open to new revelations, desiring more of God in this life and asking the Holy Spirit to enlighten us daily. Paul says, “He who runs the race, must run all(1Cor.9:24). There is a race to be run, and God by His divine inspiration has provided the course. If by simplicity, you mean to remain stagnant, just comfortable in tradition this is not the plan of God for the church. Thanks.
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Evadne,
You’re splitting hairs over the word “simple” to try to muddy the point Inaloh was making. “Simple” can be good or evil, based on the context of how it’s used (e.g. compare Psalm 19:7, 116:6, Proverbs 1:32, 7:7, Romans 16:19).
God did save us to be a powerful force against evil, to be kings, priests, & prophets, but none of this means we are higher than the angels. The angels are powerful beings also who stand against the fallen angels. In the midst of your arguments, the points I made still stand, the points Inaloh was saying “Amen” to, Those points are:
1. In the resurrection of the righteous, Jesus said believers will be “equal unto the angels” in their status. If the resurrection is a promotion, then that means we are now lower than angels, NOT a little lower than God.
2. The book of Hebrews chapter 2 clearly says Jesus Christ was “made a little lower than the angels” when he came to Earth through Mary and that it “behoved him to be made like unto his brethren.” Since he was made like his brethren, who are humans, and was made a little lower than the angels, then his brethren, who are humans, are also made a little lower than the angels.
3. Peter attests to this fact–that humans are lower than angels, even if they are saved–when he said in 2 Peter 2, “Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might…” than humans and are not as arrogant as some humans are who speak evil against valid authority.
Once again, you have displayed your vain pride in your answer to Inaloh. You, like all who believe this false doctrine, have adopted the doctrine of neoplatonists, which is based on what the serpent said in the garden of Eden–“ye shall be as gods.”
Even the apostle John in Revelation is a witness to saints being equal to angels in the resurrection. During the period of the first resurrection in Revelation 17, and Revelation 21-22, John spoke to two angels who were part of doling out the seven last plagues. Those two angels then give testimony about themselves to let John know that they are his brothers in Christ and his fellowservants. John mistook resurrected saints for being angels because they are like Jesus said–equal unto the angels in the resurrection. And the letters to the angels of the seven churches at the beginning of the resurrection tells us saints will be considered equal unto the angels and not a little lower than God, as many have deceived themselves into believing.
No matter how much you argue to exalt yourselves higher than where God has placed you, you will not ever be higher than where God has placed you in his pecking order. So get over yourselves already.
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My dear Harry I greatly appreciate your superior Biblical knowledge. Again I believe the 13 Baptist theologians who edited my Study Bible and explained the controversial question in the case of angels Vs. man. At the resurrection we who are saved will understand all things. Hope to meet you there and we will not hesitate to admit our wrong. “A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.”
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Whatever, Evadne.
Your sarcasm doesn’t annul the fact that we have this promise concerning the obvious spiritual truths in the Bible–“But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him,” 1 John 2:27. You’re so caught up in trying to exalt yourself (which is no surprise since you mistakenly think you can save yourself by your works) that you go so far as to resist what the Lord Jesus Christ said so plainly himself. Theologians are not the measure of understanding the Bible’s truth, the Holy Spirit is. I guess you can’t help but try to put men on pedestals given the false doctrines you believe in. Placing men on pedestals is Nicolaitanism, and the Lord Jesus told us he hates that when he wrote to the seven churches in Revelation.
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Is God Greater Than Jesus?..
Jesus Said” I am going to the Father..For my Father Is Greater Than I.. For no know the time are the hour not even the angels but only God the Father….
Are We One with God?
Jesus “Says”……..that they all may be One as You Father, are in Me, and I in You…..that they also may be one in Us.
Do we have God’s Glory?
Jesus “Says” ..and the glory which you gave me I have given them, that they may be One just as We are One
Do we Have the Mind Of Christ?
Holy Spirit “Says”” ..For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
Is it okay to think to be Equal With God
Holy Spirit “Says” Let this Mind Be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who being in the form of God did not consider it robbery to be equal with God.
Did we have Glory before the World Was?
Jesus “Says” …And now O Father,glorify Me together with yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Did we Have Glory Before the Universe Too?
Holy Spirit “Says” ..Just as he chose us beforehand in Christ from before the foundation of the universe, that we shall be holy and without spot before him, and he ordained us beforehand in love for himself.
Are we Hid In Christ?
Holy Spirit “Says” ..For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God…..IS IS NOT LONGER THAT I LIVE BUT CHRIST LIVEETH IN ME AND THE LIFE I LIVE IN THE FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD.
Do we sit on the the Right Hand of The Father?
…Holy Spirit “Says” …Just as He is So are we in the World..
Jesus Says” I have given them your word and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world..
WHAT DOES GOD HAVE SAY ABOUT THIS ?
GOD THE FATHER “SAYS” ..HAVING BECOME SO MUCH BETTER THAN THE ANGELS, AS HE HAS BY INHERITANCE OBTAINED A MORE EXCELLENT NAME THAN THE ANGELS
….GOD THE FATHER “SAYS” BUT TO WHICH OF THE ANGELS HAS HE EVER SAID SAID “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND TILL I MAKE ALL YOUR ENEMIES YOUR FOOTSTOOL.
…FOR WHICH OF THE ANGELS DID HE EVER SAY TODAY YOU ARE MY SON ..TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU…
..I WILL BE TO HIM A FATHER AND HE SHALL BE TO ME A SON…
WHAT ABOUT THE HELP OF ANGELS?
For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham….
ARE WE THE SON’S ABRAHAM?
HOLY SPIRIT” SAYS’ Therefore know that only those who are of faith are the sons of Abraham.
JESUS “SAYS” i will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name–the name you gave me–so that they may be one as we are one.
GOD THE FATHER “SAYS” HEAR AND GIVE EAR.. DO NOT BE PROUD ..FOR THE LORD HAS SPOKEN..GIVE GLORY TO THE LORD YOUR GOD BEFORE HE CAUSE DARKNESS AND BEFORE YOUR FEET STUMBLE…
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Starkings,
You have only proven what I’ve been saying. People like you love to wrest, or twist, the scriptures to promote your false teachings. Your comments are full of errors, but I will cover three of them, for only two or three witnesses are required by God.
[Jesus “Says”……..that they all may be One as You Father, are in Me, and I in You…..that they also may be one in Us.]
Funny how you omit the context to give your twisted take on God’s word. John 17:20-23 says, “Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.” Jesus is not saying we are equal to God, he is praying for believers to be united in Spirit as the Godhead is united so that they believe and teach and live the same things that are established by the Godhead.
Paul mirrored what Jesus meant–“Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.” You have given your own private interpretation, not God’s and have shown that you are working against what Jesus prayed about.
[Is it okay to think to be Equal With God
Holy Spirit “Says” Let this Mind Be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who being in the form of God did not consider it robbery to be equal with God.]
Again, you’ve avoided the context to give your own private interpretation. Philippians 2:2-8 says “Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” “This mind” that Paul spoke of was a mind of humility like the mind Christ had that was selfless and how Christ brought himself down to become a man. It was not talking about man exalting himself up to be equal with God. This scripture talks about the opposite of what you’re proclaiming. You’ve proven that you’re ultimate goal is to follow Satan’s teaching in the Garden of Eden–“ye shall be as gods.”
[Did we Have Glory Before the Universe Too?
Holy Spirit “Says” ..Just as he chose us beforehand in Christ from before the foundation of the universe, that we shall be holy and without spot before him, and he ordained us beforehand in love for himself.]
Ephesians 1:3-5 says “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will…” God chose us before the world began to be blessed with salvation from sin, to be filled with his Spirit, to possess spiritual gifts, to live holy, to reign with Christ, but this is in no way saying we existed and were with God in heaven before the world was created. God knew we would exist before we existed and that we would be saved before we were saved. That’s all this scripture is saying. Angels had glory before the universe but it was not equal to God’s glory. 1 Corinthians 15 clearly points out that as the celestial bodies differ in glory from each other, our resurrected bodies will differ in glory from each other. So none of your false teaching trumps what Jesus said in the Old or New Testament. “I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images,” Isaiah 42:8.
So I rebuke you and your satanic notions of godhood in the name of the Lord Jesus of Nazareth.
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I don’t think POWERSTALKINGS or any other comment here is making the argument that man is equal to or above God.
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Anonymous, I think they made it clear that equality with God is exactly what they meant. When “starkings” asked the question is it okay to think oneself equal to God they answered with the scripture that Christ thought of himself as equal to God and that we should have this same mind that Christ had. In other words we should consider ourselves equal to God. Read his or her comment more carefully.
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This was God Words for this Argument.Thank You
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Get thee behind me, Satan. For you desire the things of men, not of God. Starkings, this was your private interpretation of God’s word to contradict what the Holy Spirit said.
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Good day! I could have sworn I’ve visited your blog before but after browsing through many of the posts I realized it’s new to me.
Anyhow, I’m certainly happy I discovered it and I’ll be bookmarking
it and checking back often!
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Harry, this is an extremely intelligent and incisive analysis. It demonstrates how one ought to read and apply Scripture to theological questions, with a critically-analytic mind. Several years of reading Scripture (which, by the way, I didn’t know how to do until a pastor in a reformed church in Las Vegas I was attending showed me how) have taught me that Scripture is not only God’s revelation about himself, but it’s his own take on the human reality. So the question with which you began is right on point. As such, it ruthlessly deconstructs the myths we humans instinctively cherish about ourselves. Any critic, atheist, agnostic, humanist, who asserts that the bible is full of dogmas and demands “blind faith” has clearly never bothered to read it. In fact, Scripture jolts us out of our dogmatic slumbers, and forces us to rethink ideas we thought were long ago put to rest. Even the celebrated “Sermon on the Mount” offers ideas which were not believed at the time it was delivered, and are surely not believed today (in practice, by most of society). Why? Because the idea of loving those who hate and persecute you goes against the grain. Jesus is clearly calling for a radical rethinking of our shopworn biases. It seems we have yet to take his advice.
God, speaking through the prophet Isaiah, reminds us:
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.” (Isaiah 56: 8-9.)
In contrast, most of the examples of “naturalism” or “secular humanism” I’ve studied are grounded in some speculative worldview. The credulity required to believe their assumptions beggars the very rational mind upon which they’re supposed to depend. Moreover, the Christian, constrained by the principle of sola scriptura (“My conscience is captive to the word of God,” said Luther), can’t appeal to any ultimate human authority, ecclesiastical magisterium, or “guru.” He’s on his own; God’s revelation in his word is between the believer and God. If there’s any room here for “blind faith” in dogmas, I can’t find it.
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Thanks, tostrader. I’m glad you enjoyed this post.
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Mr. Gaylord, I appreciate your writings which have clarified these subjects so very well. I believe these topics are so important to discuss in order to demolish the errs and heresy that are so popular today…many of the responses prove how strongly these wrong beliefs have established themselves so firmly in peoples minds…it is a very good work that you do (I hope to find other topics of yours to be equally rewarding…you will know soon enough!) God Bless you, Shirley Fraser
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Thank you for such a wonderful understandable answer
Grace To You!
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You have to ask yourself, “What part of Jesus was lower than the angels?” Not His Spirit…for He was Immanuel, God with us. He did not lay down His Divine nature, for He was fully God and fully man. The only part of Jesus that was a little lower than the angels was His human form. And that is the only part of a Blood bought Christian that is a little lower than the angels…just the flesh. We are His body…ever seen a head floating around without a body…or a body without a head? We are one with Him. As He is, in the world so are we. Don’t let anyone talk you out of your rightful position of authority.
Blessings
Karen
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Amen Karen
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Folks just take a look at how all the versions came to be/ You will see the KJV.went through many translations while some of the newer ones like the NIV relied on mostly original documents. Let Harry believe whatever he wants to believe. Thanks karen for your comment. seems you left harry speechless. Christians wont argue the bible like Harry anyway.
Michael
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@mocons,
[the KJV.went through many translations]
You need to check your history since you don’t know what you’re talking about. The KJV is based on the Majority Text family of manuscripts. It agrees with 99% of the Bible manuscripts (over 5700 of them). The NIV is based on 1% of manuscripts, many of which have been shown to have been edited (i.e. shady people took away words & added words). The only thing that KJV editors changed was the font over the years & the spelling of some of the words. That’s not going through “many translations” as you so deceptively stated.
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Harry my friend you are wrong. We will not be like or equal to angels. 1 John 3:2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. This is in your KJV. I too use scripture to interpret scripture. I also do my research. Bible saysProverbs 26:4-54 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
Enough said. I made my point and don’t argue scripture.
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@mocons,
[I too use scripture to interpret scripture.]
But you didn’t in this case. You didn’t draw your conclusions on 1 John 3:2 based on what other scriptures say & I covered this scripture in previous comments. Your conclusion goes against what the Lord himself said about us being equal to the angels. Here’s what I said in previous comments, so you need to check your false premises:
“We will indeed reign with Christ. We will indeed have a resurrected body that is like Christ’s. But the glory of our future glorified bodies will not match his glory, for he said “I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another,” Isaiah 42:8. The statement I put in brackets above makes it sound as if we will be Christ’s exact replicas & that’s what new agers teach. We will be like the co-regents of ancient Judah. There would often be a king and his son reigning together, but the father was the main king while the son was the lesser king … Jesus will be the main king & we will be subject to him as we reign with him. In the resurrection we will reign with him as the children of God, but we will still be equal to the angels (Luke 20:35, 36). Angels have different ranks (archangel, cherubim, seraphim, etc.) and so will we when we reign with Christ.”
“Those who are saved are worthy to obtain that world and in their resurrection from the dead, not only are they not given in marriage, they cannot die any more. They are EQUAL to the angels, yet in their being EQUAL to the angels, Jesus still calls them the children of God. They are Christ-like, but still EQUAL to the angels in heaven. They are made in God’s image, but they are still EQUAL to the angels. They have resurrected bodies, and when he shall appear, we shall be like him, but in that resurrection, we are EQUAL unto the angels. Not one jot or tittle shall by any means pass from Christ’s words.”
‘Our physical state will be like Christ’s. 1 John 3 says “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” When Christ was asked about marriage in heaven, that deals with what our role will be, and not our physical state. Our role will not be getting married but to be equal to the angels in serving Christ the same way they serve Christ. Our role will be to reign with Christ also, but in that role we will not be higher than angels.’
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Just the fact that we humans are fallen creatures is proof to me that angels are superior to us.
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I agree with what you are saying Mr. Harry A. Gaylord. But the point is you should not directly explain Psalms 8:5 by cross-referencing it with Hebrews 2:7(although I’m not against with Scripture to Scripture explanation because that is the best way of doing it) but the thing is that those commentators of yours that keeps on commenting and perverting the Word of GOD are all blinded and are filled with the spirit of pride in their lives! Now let us take a look once more in Ps.8:5 which alone can take a stand by explaining itself on what it’s really meant to say ( I do not say that I do not believe in the harmony of the Gospel/Word of GOD but I believe that every passage in the Word of GOD/Bible can stand alone with perfection since it is the Word of GOD! if properly interpreted of course with the help and great aid of the HOLY SPIRIT) As you can see the word “angel” in Ps. 8:5 is interpreted in Hebrew as “Elohim”. And in this case the KJV is correct in translating this passage since in the original Hebrew text the word “Elohim” in Ps. 8:5 really meant as “angel” in which this passage of the Bible (Ps. 8:5) is a Messianic prophecy of what is to come, that Jesus Christ will be incarnated taking the form of a human being and making Himself lower than the angels (Heavenly angels). This time let us discuss the position of angel in regards to man: By creation man is lower than the angels (Heb. 2:7-9). Angels are higher in intelligence,power,movement, yet angels serve men as ministering spirits (Heb. 1:14) sent forth to serve the saints regardless of their high position and power. As mentioned, men are warned to never worship angels for they are only creatures. Today believers are experientially lower than the angels, yet positionally higher because of their union in CHRIST. The point is angels are superior to humans in terms only in intelligence, power, etc. but can never take place the place of man in GOD’s eyes. Remember angels are created by GOD through a spoken Word fashioned in the image of GOD while man is created by GOD with a PERSONAL TOUCH, being so much privileged to have the BREATH OF LIFE and fashioned in the Image of GOD as it is being said Gen. 2:7 and Gen. 1:26-27. And that makes man more special than the angels. Why do you think that GOD in his foreknowledge created angels as beings that cannot be redeemed even though they are created by GOD in his own image while man being inferior to angles in power,might,intelligence etc. created by GOD as a being that can be redeemed? The answer is very simple: we are the only creature created by GOD whom GOD wants to have a deep personal relationship to the extent that we are given a privilege to experience the indwelling GOD in which the angels although superior to man experientially but not positionally do not even have the chance to experience it even though they are so close to GOD for they are the Worshipers of GOD in Heaven for now. Now let us take a look in Luke 20:34-35. The meaning of this passage of the Bible wherein man in resurrection will become equal with the angels means that man will also become immortal beings having a resurrected body which is incorruptible, body like the angels (Heavenly angels). Although One day,however, believers will be both positionally and experientially higher than the angels for according to 1 Jn. 3:2 – “………we shall be like Him…”. But this doesn’t mean that we will be equal with our LORD JESUS CHRIST in power and in authority and in glory for the LORD says in Is. 48:11 that He will not give His glory unto another. For we know that the glory of our LORD JESUS CHRIST exceedeth high above the earth and high above the Heaven of Heavens making the Glory of GOD indescribable.But the meaning of this passage means CHRISTLIKENESS. Dear brothers even though in GOD’s eyes we are more precious than the angels even though they are more superior to us in intelligence,power,movement and etc. let us humble ourselves before GOD for GOD OPPOSES the prideful. GODSPEED to all of you 🙂
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Hi Harry.
I read many of the comments in this discussion with an open mind and have the following to say.
It looks as if your strongest argument comes from what Jesus said in Luke 20:36: “Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.” Now, do a quick word study in an interlinear source on “equal unto the angels.” Specifically, Strong’s Number: 2465. It is used only 1 time in the entire Bible. The definition that Strongs gives is “like the angels.” With that possibility in mind, let’s look at the verse again. The CONTEXT is “neither can they die any more,” then comes a COLON, then comes “for they are LIKE the angels,” then wraps up the CONTEXT talking about the resurrection. (The resurrection is also about not dying, incorruptible, eternal life.) To be clear, in this passage, Jesus was talking about us being LIKE angels in the sense that we won’t die. It has nothing to do with our status or rank as compared with angels. Sorry. 🙂
A quick note about 2 Peter 1:20 and accusing others of having a private interpretation of scripture. Take Luke 20:36 for example. For logical and contextual reasons, I have developed an interpretation that is different than your interpretation. I therefore believe that you are wrong about Luke 20:36, using logic and reason. Therefore, am I allowed to accuse you of having a private interpretation of Luke 20:36? Well? Am I? But let’s say you still disagree with me about Luke 20:36 for some reason. Are you allowed to accuse me of having a private interpretation? Are you? Really? Honestly, I just think it is bizarre for two people to throw 2 Peter 1:20 around when they have an honest disagreement about what a passage of scripture means. It’s almost like you’re wanting to deliver a double-whammy: “You’re wrong about that scripture, BAM! Ahha, you’re also violating 2 Peter 1:20 because you have a private interpretation of that scripture, BAM BAM! Haha!” I mean, you can keep accusing people of that if you want to, but it’s just kind of silly. I don’t think that’s what Peter was talking about anyway.
One final quick thing. You say you’ve observed Christians who want to believe they are like God so that they can be worshipped. (You really know people like that? Really? Ouch.) That is a tragic shame. Really is. On the other hand, I personally know many Christians who believe we have a divine nature for a completely different reason that has nothing to do with pride. That’s right, no pride: They are deeply in love with God and see likeness with God as part of our divine romance with Him as the BRIDE of Christ! Hallelujah!
(Wait, why would Christ want to be married to a bride that is not a member of the same kind? That would be gross! Haha!)
Oh my gosh, going back to the same passage, in Luke 20:36 Jesus calls us “children of God!” Don’t look at me. Jesus said it! Let me ask you, what is the definition of children? “Little people,” right? So then, what is the definition of “children of God?” Oh no, you dare not say it: “Little -.” ;D
Thank you for providing this discussion. Your arguments have solidified my point of view to be completely different than yours and in ways that I believe are very Biblical and spiritually healthy. I genuinely bless you and look forward to being great friends with you on the other side of eternity in Him. You made me laugh and brought joy to my life. Love you bro.
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[I read many of the comments in this discussion with an open mind…Your arguments have solidified my point of view to be completely different than yours]
David, your opening statement in comparison to your closing statement shows you didn’t come here with an open mind after all. You could have at least been honest from jumpstreet to say you came here to argue against my stance. If your point of view was “solidified” to be completely different from mine, then you came here with your mind made up already. Hence, you didn’t have an open mind.
[… in this passage, Jesus was talking about us being LIKE angels in the sense that we won’t die. It has nothing to do with our status or rank as compared with angels]
This is an example of you giving your own private interpretation. This shows you try to tear down my criticizing people for their private interpretations so you can inject your own private interpretation. How do I know this is your own take on this scripture? Because you drew the incorrect conclusion on what this scripture is about by throwing in the “Strong’s says this” statement and totally ignoring how this conversation with Jesus started.
This discussion with Jesus started with a question about which of 7 brothers, who had married the same woman before they died without children, would actually be the woman’s husband in the resurrection. They were asking how marriage is handled in the resurrection, which the Sadducees asked as a way (they thought) of ridiculing the very concept of resurrection. Jesus’ response was that in the resurrection, the children of God are equal to angels in these ways: they don’t marry, they aren’t given in marriage, and they don’t die any more. Your attempt to throw in what Strong’s says was just the common tactic used nowadays to muddy the waters so people can change God’s word to match their personal, preconceived notions. The KJV, unlike other Bible versions, has it’s own built in dictionary and when Strong’s and the Bible don’t agree, the context of scripture should take precedent and superiority. The very word “equal” is a word of comparison and God’s word, the kjv, is always correct. Therefore, when Jesus said “they [the children of God] are equal unto the angels” is a comparative phrase that by default speaks of status and rank. It’s like saying God=Father=Son=Holy Spirit, a comparative phrase that says the three have the same status and rank.
[For logical and contextual reasons, I have developed an interpretation that is different than your interpretation. I therefore believe that you are wrong about Luke 20:36, using logic and reason. Therefore, am I allowed to accuse you of having a private interpretation of Luke 20:36?]
But your reason omitted the whole context, which led you to draw a conclusion that was only halfway right. So you would not be allowed to claim private interpretation against me in this case as I have for you. Like I said before, scripture must be compared with scripture. That’s why I didn’t isolate the Luke passage by itself and brought in Psalms, Hebrews, and 2 Peter to draw my conclusion. So, again, your attempt to label my private interpretation argument as silly so you can have your private interpretation is disingenuous.
[You say you’ve observed Christians who want to believe they are like God so that they can be worshipped. (You really know people like that? Really? Ouch.) …I personally know many Christians who…are deeply in love with God and see likeness with God as part of our divine romance with Him as the BRIDE of Christ!]
With this argument, you are subtly comparing a figurative relationship (Jesus and the church) with a literal comparison (children of God are equal to angels in the resurrection). Not the same thing. Yes, I’ve encountered people who claim we are the God-kind just as your statement subtly does. They are the ones ascribing to the Word Faith Movement, which I like to call the Word Fake Movement. Take for instance these clips:
[Wait, why would Christ want to be married to a bride that is not a member of the same kind? That would be gross! Haha!]
Dumb joke since you’re taking figurative language to make it literal. Here’s how ridiculous you sound. The church is also called the “body of Christ” and “members of Christ” so how can a person marry themselves if we’re the bride of Christ? You make your arguments and bad jokes based on scripture outside of its proper context.
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Harry, thank you so much for responding.
My opening statement is perfectly consistent with my closing statement. Let’s take a look at the definition of “open mind” according to the Internet:
Here is what “open mind” means:
“ready to entertain new ideas”
https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+open+mind
Okay, so my mind was ready to entertain new ideas when I started reading your original post and much of the discussion comments. You don’t HAVE to believe me, but it was my assertion that I had an open mind, and I must challenge you to find a contradiction in my assertion about having had an open mind, which you claim to have found. On that note, let’s take a look at my closing statement. Here is what I said toward the end: “Your arguments have solidified my point of view to be completely different than yours.” Chronological events are very interesting, aren’t they? They are also very inconvenient for you here. Chronology, where things happen one right after the other. 1) The first thing that happened was, I was ready to entertain new ideas. 2) The next thing that happened was, I entertained those new ideas. 3) Then finally, after I entertained those new ideas, my point of view became solidified after reading your arguments. Do you still see a contradiction here? If you still do, read on.
Harry, I have a question for you. What if I were to have said this instead?
“I read many of the comments in this discussion with an open mind. Your arguments have solidified my point of view to be completely in agreement with you! You’re awesome man, keep fighting the good fight of faith and helping people see the truth!”
Go deep with my question. Honestly. Don’t just say the right answer because you know the right answer. Examine yourself: If I would have made the statement immediately above, would you have jumped to the conclusion that I didn’t really come here with an open mind after all? Would you have said, “Bah, David, thanks for the encouraging compliment, but I really don’t think you came here with an open mind after all. Nobody comes to this site with an open mind and actually changes their mind to agree with me!” Because Harry, on the other side of the coin, that’s what you would have to be saying. Let me summarize and boil it down clearly: If someone can come to your blog with an open mind and change their mind to agree with you, then it stands to reason that a person can also visit your blog with an open mind and change their mind to disagree with you. You can’t have it both ways my brother. 😀
So, you want the honest truth? Here it is, the honest truth: I did not come here to argue against your stance. I did in fact come here to learn with an open mind. Some of the things you said did start to persuade me to agree with you in some ways and I was preparing myself to accept your position, depending on how the discussion developed. But then I kept reading. And reading. And reading. The responses that you came up with to many of the contributors to this discussion really caused me to come to a completely different conclusion than you. If that hurts your feelings, well, I sympathize. That can be a healthy thing too. Hurt feelings or not, what happened this morning is exactly as I said. I invested a lot of time and thought on the matter while reading your post and discussion. Again, for the record, I do thank you for hosting this discussion and think it is valuable for theological discussion and thought on the Internet.
A final word about Luke 20:36 before I bow out and move on to other things. Okay, Strongs is a red herring suitable for another discussion, that’s fine. (I didn’t know you held a position against using texts derived from original language scholarship.) You hit the nail on the head when you said, “Jesus’ response was that in the resurrection, the children of God are equal to angels in these ways: they don’t marry, they aren’t given in marriage, and they don’t die any more.” That’s a good way to put it! The only things Jesus equated future humans to angels about were just those 3 things: we won’t marry, we won’t be given in marriage, and we won’t die anymore. But…how does that make your point? I mean, even Elohim doesn’t marry, isn’t given in marriage, and doesn’t die. In other words, if those 3 things prove that children of God are equal in status to angels, then those 3 things would also prove that Elohim is equal in status to angels. That doesn’t make any sense. Therefore, an evaluation of this passage just doesn’t say anything new about our relation to Elohim for purposes of this discussion.
Yes, the “bride” of Christ is figurative, I know. So the joke I made was flawed if taken to be a real point, I agree. However, we shouldn’t lose sight that even though it is figurative, it does represent something REAL. Yes, I agree that can get sketchy, but when a word is chosen to be figurative, it is usually chosen because that is the best way to explain what is otherwise impossible to understand. In this case, “bride” was chosen to illustrate God’s relation to born again humans at some point. It’s so interesting that He uses “bride” of Christ as the illustration. That’s pretty elevating if you ask me!
And finally, I’ll always think that accusing someone of having a “personal interpretation” just because you disagree with their reasoning is pretty silly. Anybody can disagree with anyone else’s reasoning and then say, “ah ha, you have a personal interpretation!” Making that accusation doesn’t actually prove anything about the person’s position. At best, it’s like calling someone names. At worst, it’s an intimidation tactic. But I won’t accuse you of that. 😀
I have no animosity toward you. Be blessed and have a fruitful life.
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[The only things Jesus equated future humans to angels about were just those 3 things: we won’t marry, we won’t be given in marriage, and we won’t die anymore. But…how does that make your point? I mean, even Elohim doesn’t marry, isn’t given in marriage, and doesn’t die. In other words, if those 3 things prove that children of God are equal in status to angels, then those 3 things would also prove that Elohim is equal in status to angels. That doesn’t make any sense.]
David, in my response you’ll notice that I pointed out the fact that I included other scripture to draw the conclusions along with the passage in Luke to reach the point of claiming angels and children of God in the resurrection have equal status. I also pointed out in previous comments, which you claim you read, that Jesus could have said here that God doesn’t get married and Jesus could have said we would be like God in the resurrection, but he didn’t. He did that purposefully to make the point we won’t be his equal. Period. But, of course, your argument omits one very important phrase. Jesus said we wouldn’t die any more, which is another reason we can never be equal with God. We have a beginning and a physical end. God is from everlasting to everlasting.
Not only that but you added to what I said. I said Jesus pointed out that we would be like angels in these ways, then I listed 3 things. But I never said Jesus ONLY pointed out we would be like angels in JUST those 3 things. If you read all of my previous comments, I made that pretty clear. You tried to put that on me to try to detract from what I was saying, when I was using those as examples to point out how you omitted part of the context. That’s also how you’ve mishandled God’s word as well.
But suffice it to say that you made your beliefs known toward the end of your first comment and said that since we are the bride of Christ and children of God, that makes us little gods. So you buy into the lies that the Word Fake Movement is perpetrating on the church. That’s your real reason for coming here. You came to solidify the position you already held.
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For the record, I do not claim that we are or will ever be equal to God. He is our Creator. He is our Redeemer. He has no beginning. We can never claim these things. Probably lots of other things can be added to that list. I find it a great privilege, however, that He makes us to be much more than what our sin nature causes us to think of ourselves. Through the blood of Jesus, He has and is restoring us to be in His image, in His likeness. He is preparing born again humanity to become the bride of Christ, joint heirs with Christ, seated in heavenly places in Christ. You and I have a wonderful future in Him. It is so thrilling! I am genuinely excited right now about this!
But for heaven’s sake. Chronology, man, chronology! In response to your final paragraph above: 1) I visited your blog with some understanding about the issue, yes, but ready to entertain new ideas with an open mind. 2) I entertained those ideas and was even brought to a place of readiness to accept your point of view based on some of the initial persuasive things that you said. 3) As the discussion continued and I considered what others were saying and your responses to them, I found myself agreeing with them a whole lot more. Then 4) I wrote my response to you, which included my tongue-in-cheek challenge of how to interpret the phrase, “children of God” as being “little gods.” Why aren’t you able to comprehend chronology well enough to see that #1 happened before #4 in the progression I just explained to you? I guess it rubs me the wrong way that you would question my integrity without actually getting to know me. I have a strong sense of justice and fairness I guess, and it’s just not right that you judge me unfairly about that! 😀
Anyway, I forgive you. Peace to you. I’m out.
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David very true that verse surely does comparison A figure of speech in which two fundamentally unlike things are explicitly compared, usually in a phrase introduced by like or as.
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Humans are lower than angels before resurrection. But in some light, it is seen that God favors man more. I think this is why satan questions God with a hint of uneasiness and envy. It’s like, “we angels are more powerful than humans, in terms of abilities and wisdom and beauty, why did you set humans in such authority over the earth?”
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I would like to add my views as I also seek truth. Lately I have read the scriptures and prayed seeking the Lord’s guidance in this matter. I humble myself before the Lord because I am a man full of error and unworthy of His grace and mercy. Yet I am lifted up by His great love for me knowing that He has paid a great price to have me as a possession. My heart is not burdened to think myself as an angel in that I am a messanger for the Lord. On earth we have an earthly body but we are more than this. Since Christ died for us, we who believe and have faith, have been granted the gift of the Holy Spirit to go out among our brothers and sisters to spread the truth. In this way we are like angels. Before Christ we walked in the errors of our ways but just as Christ came to take us out from under the Law, He has also raised us up to Himself. Let us not spend our time in petty quarrel but keep our eyes firmly fixed on our Lord and walk as He walks. When we do this, we store up treasures in Heaven that are much more valuable than any sense of satisfaction we can know here. Be branches of the Lord and go forth and bare fruit.
You only need to know this. That God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
I pray that your hearts be open to the Lord and His blessings be poured out on all of you
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Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, [literally, “is God-breathed”] and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
♦ Because the Bible is like no other book (it is not written by men but by infinite God), we must look to God alone for the instructions of how to study and understand the Bible. The Bible must be our only authority. We cannot use the vain thoughts from our own sin-tainted minds to develop the rules for interpreting Scripture.
Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
Luke 24:45 Then opened He [Christ] their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Psalm 119:18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.
Inconclusion if most of u could rely on the Holy Spirit you will know the truth. I’m most definitely superior then angels but not equal to God I’m his creation and will be never equal to Him. Satan was crazy to think he will ever equal to God and I doubt that any believer or christian thinks that he is equal to God.
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[I’m most definitely superior then [sic] angels]
Then let’s see you pass through a wall without hurting yourself or the wall, make yourself invisible, stir up waters to heal people, exhibit supernatural physical strength, and ascend & descend to & from heaven in a spiritual body. Just because you can quote scripture doesn’t mean that your mistaken conclusion is the truth. Just because you can quote scripture doesn’t mean that you can dismiss Christ’s words when he said his saints are equal to the angels in the resurrection.
[I doubt that any believer or christian thinks that he is equal to God]
People who call themselves Christians can be deceived, as you’ve shown in your statement with your false belief that you are superior to angels. However, if someone is genuinely a Christian they will not equate themselves with God since this is blasphemy. But there are those who claim to be Christian that DO think of themselves as having godhood, as is clear in the YouTube audio clip I included above from Word Fake teachers Kenneth Copeland & Creflo Dollar.
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“Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”
This is a figure of speech in which two fundamentally unlike things are explicitly compared, usually in a phrase introduced by like or as. I’m not dismissing Christ words. You have a problem of understanding it and I will advice you to seek rhema understanding that is not based on human intellect! Harry every being that God created has it’s special function. Angels are different from humans with different abilities so as animals and all that God has created.
“Then let’s see you pass through a wall without hurting yourself or the wall, make yourself invisible, stir up waters to heal people, exhibit supernatural physical strength, and ascend & descend to & from heaven in a spiritual body.” Really???God didn’t create me for this which you are illustrating here, you know it and I know this come on! And neither does it mean angels are superior then humans because of these abilities, seriously. Even some animals have beter abilities then humans but that doesn’t rank their position. We definitely not equal to angels, we are superior!!! I’m a heir(first born)!
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[This is a figure of speech in which two fundamentally unlike things are explicitly compared]
Wrong again, Linda. The book of Revelation blows your false assumption right out of the water. Jesus refers to the overseers of his 7 churches as “angels.” Further on in Revelation, John sees calls his guides through the 7 last plagues as angels. They reveal themselves as his fellowservants & brothers. Meaning they are fellow saints. John saw them in his vision as being equal to angels. You failed to compare scripture with scripture to find the definition.
[I will advice [sic] you to seek rhema understanding]
Okay, Linda. Thanks for using this phrase from the Word Fake movement. Now I know that you follow the likes of liars like Kenneth Copeland & Creflo Dollar. This is why you quote scripture but can’t discern what it means. You insert the false teachings of the “rhema” Word Fakers.
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I don’t know “Word Fake movement” those are my own words. Rhema means “spoken word” I go further and say living, alive word of God. I even take His word as a living organism. Take it easy with accusations, assumptions and conclusions on one’s comments please!
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You have forgotten strategically to mention Hebrews 1:4. That because of what Jesus did we are now made greater then the angels.Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. And by the way we will judge angels.1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels?how much more things that pertain to this life? Really don’t know why we would tailor a message for The Body to be weak when we are powerful creatures through Christ Jesus and the Salt and the Light with him in us…..I can only assume accountability is the problem….one is a Victim mindset and one is a Victor mindset. I have the Victory in Christ Jesus and shall walk as “a Son of God” Uihos in the Greek….NOT a babe in Christ..Teknon in the Greek. Time to grow up Body of Christ and teach THE WHOLE GOSPEL!!! In Christ and On Purpose! Dr Nick Castellano
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Here we go with “the Greek says this” and “the Greek means that.” So, basically what you’re implying is that if someone is not a Greek scholar, they don’t really know what the New Testament says and can’t be correct in understanding God’s word. Understanding God’s word is, therefore, reserved for the “ascended masters” with letters after their names or with fancy titles like “Dr.” before their names. Do you realize that’s the gnostic doctrine of the Nicolaitans? It is the Holy Spirit who reveals the truth of God’s word. God always supplies two or three witnesses within his own word to tell us what he meant. The Bible has it’s own built-in dictionary, revealed by his Holy Spirit.
You have totally misquoted Hebrews 1:4 to draw your erroneous conclusion. Here’s the context of that scripture, as I’ve stated before:
“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?” Hebrews 1
It is Jesus who is made better than the angels. This passage is exclusively about Jesus, not his followers.
As I said before in this comment: “When we judge angels, these are not the heavenly angels we will be judging. The scriptures speak time and again how Satan will be placed under our feet. It is the evil angels that we will judge, not the righteous ones. We will witness how the angels who kept not their first estate will be judged by believers in Christ, but this does not mean we will be like God and have his status. God said he will not give or share his glory as the true living Godhead with any other being [Isaiah 48:11].”
The fact that only fallen angels are under our feet is shown clearly by the fact that we can cast out devils in Jesus’ name and have power over all the power of the enemy [Luke 10:19]. This also foreshadows the time when we will judge them. When saints interacted with godly angels in the word, like Peter in Acts when he was imprisoned and John did in Revelation, they submitted to the angels’ orders as given to those angels by God–“For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways,” Psalm 91:11.
[one is a Victim mindset and one is a Victor mindset]
You only say this because your understanding has been corrupted by the Word Fake (“Word Faith”) movement. Acknowledging that one is currently a little lower than the angels is humility, not victimhood. It’s a mindset that humbly acknowledges that what Jesus said is true–we will become equal to the godly angels in the resurrection. Yes, it’s time to teach the WHOLE Gospel because teachers who believe like you do have, in many instances, taught vain pride, which is why even Pentecostal & Charismatic churches lack spiritual maturity.
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Harry,
You seem to have researched the scriptures inside and out and appear to be very knowledgeable on the subject, but you would do well to remember to exercise a little humility and not become the prideful thing that the very scriptures denounce. Remember people in these blogs are searching for meaning and may have an erroneous take on certain things but that doesn’t mean that you should pull them down and tear them apart. Help them onto the right path and encourage them along: remember 2 Timothy 2:24-26.
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Mark, we live in an age where people insist their wrong doctrines are true though God’s word is black and white on many issues. Then they come here out of their pride to try to argue me down. Having strong convictions and confidence in what God says isn’t pride, it’s unwavering faith. When God gives his 2 or 3 witnesses to prove something, waffling on that issue by questioning what he meant fosters doubt. If people are offended by my confidence in God and his word, so be it.
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Jesus, Jesus Ohhhhhh Sweet Jesus, the lover of my soul, ye did not die for any thing else but to redeem us from our fallen nature / carnal being, We bless you and thank you for thine mercy, Safe us from pomposity, arrogance and most of all our own intellect but give us the understanding of the word through the help of the Holy Ghost our helper our teacher and our comforter, May we grow in the things of the Lord by seeking God’s wisdom (Prov 2 verse 12) Amen. South Africa
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1 Timothy 1, KJV:
3As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. 5Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: 6From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
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How are you brethren. I have just one question…………..What is the meaning of the word Elohim
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You can find it here–> http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H430&t=KJV
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By the way the Greek Septuagint, which is the Greek translation of the Old Testament written by Hebrew scholars before the time of Christ, translates “elohim” in Psalms 8 as “angelos” which is “angels”. And more importantly than that, every Greek translation of the New Testament has the word “angelos” in Hebrews 2:7, including both the Received Text (KJV) and the Critical Texts (Modern Versions). Argument over, there are your nails in the coffin for yah Mr. Gaylord. The term elohim was used for human judges, gods, godesses, and angels in the Old Testament. Although rare, the term is used in these ways and CONTEXT always indicates how the term is to be translated. But the Greek Translations of the Bible all say angel in Hebrews 2:7. Check it out at Bible Hub for yourselves. http://biblehub.com/text/hebrews/2-7.htm
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