I recently read blogs from two people on why the nation of Israel should not exist and the bloggers here and here gave their reasons which would sound valid to someone who is not educated to the whole of scripture. Their reasons for their positions were as follows:
1. The nation of Israel is not a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy: This statement was based on their understanding of Romans 2:23-29 where Paul states a true Jew is one who worships God in his heart as opposed to one who is focused on outward appearances. Since Israel is a secular state, in their opinion, it has not fulfilled prophecy.
2. The 1947 partition of the land by the UN was illegal: The acquisition of the land violated Hague Regulations and the UN Charter by acquiring territory by force.
3. The State Of Israel has created chaos from the moment it was birthed: The blogger blamed everything from terrorism to Communism to America’s debt to racism on the Jews.
4. Old Testament laws about distributing land to Israel no longer apply: This statement was based on Hebrews 7:11-12.
5. There is no longer a division between Jews and Gentiles based on Ephesians 2:11-15.
6. Jesus did not come to establish an earthly kingdom based on John 18:36.
7. Christ was focused on the heavenly, not the earthly based on Hebrews 12:22-29.
For point #1, the current nation of Israel is, in fact a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. Yes, the majority of Israel is secular, but there are an impressive number of Jews in Israel who believe in Jesus Christ and therefore are true Jews as spoken in Romans 2. Just because they are outnumbered by false Jews doesn’t give anyone the right to wipe them out. Even Jesus spoke in his parable about the wheat and the tares that the tares should not be pulled out until the harvest, which refers to when Christ will sit on his throne to judge all men at the end of days. God said in Isaiah 10:20-22 and Zephaniah 3:12-20 that there would always be a remnant of true believers in the midst of Israel.
In Amos 9, the Lord calls Israel the sinful kingdom and talks about punishing them, but after their punishment comes the blessing that “[b]ehold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.” Amos 9:13-15
This is literal land spoken of in this prophecy and God promises that once Israel is in it, they would not only prosper, but they would REMAIN in it. He also confirmed this through Ezekiel in Ezekiel 36:5-15 when God was upset by the idea of the Gentiles to distribute his land that he promised to Israel as if they owned it. God then went on to promise that Israel would no longer be bereaved of having their own people dwelling in their land and he would cause them to prosper in their land. Thus far, he has fulfilled his prophecies through Israel. They have been fruitful in their land and the whole world has benefited from many of their inventions and products such as voice mail, the first computer anti-virus technology, and the cell phone. God can use anyone he chooses to fulfill his prophecies and in 1947-48 he used the UN. He does not care about UN directives and regulations. He does what pleases him, since he is sovereign, and is not going to allow laws set up by men to stop his plans.
Regarding point #3, Israel is by no means a perfect nation and the majority of Jews in Israel are sinful. Some Jews are guilty of committing great evil. But this is hardly a premise for doing away with the nation. The United States is the poster child for the production of pornography, the illegal drug trade, killing unborn babies, and international corporate greed but we argue and fight against those who want to destroy us. Both Russia and China have been responsible for the violation of human rights and have done more than any other nations to spread Communism, but no one is calling for their annihilation. Many Islamic nations violate women’s rights and commit various atrocities, but we’re not trying to wipe them off the face of the Earth. So why is it that Israel should be treated any differently?
Point #4 is quoting Hebrews 7 out of context. Hebrews is making the point that the Mosaic law has no bearing on a man’s relationship with God. There is no longer the need for the law or a Levitical priesthood since God’s grace by faith in Jesus Christ replaces it. It has no application to the fact that God said Israel would be established as a nation in the earth.
With regard to point #5, there is no distinction in God’s spiritual kingdom between Jews and Gentiles when they become believers in Christ, but this does not apply to how God sets up nations in the earth. We still have Chinese Christians in China, Korean Christians in North and South Korea, Latino Christians in the nations of Central and South America, and Nigerian Christians in Nigeria, so what’s up with the argument against having Israeli Christians living in a state of Israel? It’s pure nonsense!
Points #6 and #7 just highlight the fact that Jesus was not trying to establish a nation on earth where his followers would segregate themselves from the rest of the world. We are truly citizens of a spiritual kingdom, but we are allowed to live anywhere God allows us to live on Earth. Just because Jesus did not come to reign as a physical king of the present earthly nation of Israel does not mean that Israel has no right to exist. Israel exists because God promised Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob that their physical descendants would dwell in the land forever.
The first blogger above is a member of the Greek Orthodox Church. That raises a red flag in my mind because the Greek Orthodox Church as well as other religious organizations think they have a right to the lands where Jesus walked because they think of themselves as being Jesus’ true successors. They see the Israelis as standing in the way of owning land that belongs to them, so they come up with all types of arguments to make the Jews look as evil as possible. But God makes it clear in his word that he intended those lands for the physical Israel (i.e. Jews) and it’s only when Christ returns with his saints that he will establish the land as the possession of all of his followers even if in the meantime the Antichrist brokers a deal for all interested parties to share Jerusalem, but I’ll save that discussion for another day. Meanwhile, God’s sign over the land of Israel is clear–”NO TRESPASSING! VIOLATORS WILL BE PROSECUTED.”
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. …Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. …
And if some of the branches [Israel] be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches [Israel]. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches [Israel] were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. …
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. …
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father’s sakes. Romans 11
–posted by Harry A. Gaylord–
June 3, 2008 at 12:23 am |
Funny, but the findings of those you quote are discounted based on your understanding and claim “Although I am not a biblical scholar, God has revealed many things to me..”
I don’t know what to say but anyone who thinks God speaks and reveals things to him/ her of all people is nuts! There are no more Prophets and you think that your interpretation holds water compared to the others?
And funny yet is the Orthodox Jewish belief that Jesus is boiling in hell and, in, of all things, excrement? Then you want to still claim the Prophecy is fulfilled? I say they have more valid points than you do!
ATW
June 3, 2008 at 8:59 am |
If the Jews possess the land, it is of necessity that the old testament laws concerning the land and the Levitical priesthood stand.
Concerning the other blogger’s beliefs, I don’t agree with the Greek Orthodox Church. Further, his beliefs did not persuade me of my position concerning Israel.
Further, the state of Israel has done much evil and has even persecuted Lebanese Christians. I cannot and will not support such a tyrannical regime that routinely slaughters Gentiles.
June 3, 2008 at 5:33 pm |
Rashad,
Personally, I’m not in favor of anyone violating human rights and I think they should be confronted with their wrongdoings. However, I’ve noticed that the nations of the world have no problems reprimanding other nations when they do wrong while allowing them to continue as a nation. But when it comes to Israel doing the same types of wrongs other nations do, everyone calls for them to be wiped off the face of the earth. That’s what I disagree with–the glaring double standard. Reprimand them for their wrongdoings, but acknowledge they are allowed to be a nation with land. They have a right to continue as a nation and it’s not a necessity for Old Testament laws to apply since God’s everlasting covenant about the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob possessing the land came centuries before the Mosaic law.
You were quick to mention Israel’s persecution of Lebanese Christians, but chose not to mention Syria’s attempts to keep the Lebanese people under their thumb by the assassination and unjustified intimidation of anyone who opposes Syrian influence in Lebanon. And which “Lebanese Christians” do you mean? The majority of “Lebanese Christians” are tied to the Roman Catholic church, a religious organization that (like the Greek Orthodox) seeks to have Israel’s land, especially Jerusalem.
ATW,
I never claimed to be a prophet. Prophets do, in fact, still exist. Otherwise, how could we have the 144,000 Jews and the two witnesses spoken of in Revelation that will come on the world scene after the Rapture who will prophesy? God’s prophets no longer write scripture, but they still prophesy.
God still gives people an understanding of his word and reveals things to them. That’s how believers are able to grow in spiritual maturity when they read and study God’s word. There’s still a whole lot I don’t know, but that doesn’t negate the many things I’ve already learned through the Holy Spirit who teaches every believer that is willing to listen. You don’t have to be a Bible scholar to know what the Bible says and means.
I think both of you guys are blinded by hatred that you have in your heart, and just like people in America’s past tried to justify their hatred against other races using the Bible, you’re doing the same thing regarding Israel.
June 4, 2008 at 12:53 am |
Hi, Harry.
Thanks for putting this post up. What a lot of research must have gone into it–when I say thanks, I mean it.
Who has heard of such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall a land be born in one day?
Shall a nation be delivered in one moment?
Yet as soon as Zion was in labor
she delivered her children. (Is 66:8 NRSV)
Absolutely amazing. I love to see Biblical prophecy fulfilled. And who has ever heard of such a thing? The Jews were scattered over the whole world, just as God said would happen. And now many of them are gathered right back in Israel and more come every day–just as God said would happen. I’m impressed.
What other people group, so scattered for so long, has ever kept its national identity? Who thought that Israel would really be reborn? Reading the older commentaries, bible scholars were making excuses for that prophecy and yet here it is. Too cool!
Are you aware that Babylon is being rebuilt? (I know you probably are, but I had to bring it up.) Prophecies from YHWH always come to pass and as a rule, they tend to come to pass literally (excepting obviously Apocalyptic and poetic language).
Grace and Peace,
Cindy
June 4, 2008 at 5:34 am |
Thanks, Cindy.
It’s always encouraging to see how God fulfills his prophecies.
June 8, 2008 at 7:25 am |
Hi Cindy and Harrygaylord.
I do understand where your interpretations come from. Please learn to ask God for the Holy Spirit to interpret scripture to you as you study God’s word.
many people rely on the man behind the pulpit for interpretation of scripture and the devil uses him to speak things that people want to hear. ’smooth things”.
The main reason people support the Israel(country in the middle east) stems from selfishness. They only support it coz of the verse in genesis’ I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you”,thinking that if they do good things to people living in the middle east,they will claim the blessing. Why do they not do so to the rest of the countries in the world?
First of all,the 144,000 aren’t jews. If you really read revelation,they are the ones to be sealed(as sealing is going on) and they are the ones God will find pure on earth. As when God sent His judgments in the days of Noah,He only found 8 people,therefore in our day,God will only find that number(144,000). In one of the chapters,The revelator says that
”The Lamb and the 144,000
Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.”(revelation 14;1-5)
The Bible is clear…those that make up that number are pure and have kept themselves pure. They are the ones that have been redeemed from the earth.Its not said anywhere that they are exclusively jews. So tell me,a jew that tells lies,slanders people,is selfish,will still make an entrance to heaven coz he is a natural(not spiritual) descendant of Jacob?
God’s word is clear in Galatians 5:19-21
”The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Are all jews immune to those sinful acts?
Both jew and gentile who ”walk in the ways of the LORD will see His face”
God hates sin and doesnt make a compromise.
As for the rebuilding of the temple,the temple was rebuilt thousands of years ago,please read Ezra chapters 6 and 7. So donot expect another temple to be rebuilt.
There will be no rapture. Revelation,Daniel,Jude,1 Thessalonians are clear,4:15-17
. According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the LORD forever’.
Every eye will see Him and at His coming,the wicked will be destroyed,and will resurrect again after a thousand years and be consumed with the devil.
The Thousand Years(revelation 20)
And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Satan’s Doom
When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. ”
Please ask God to interprete scripture to you. Do not wait for a pastor….who in any case will mislead you!
God bless and i pray for you!
June 8, 2008 at 1:17 pm |
Julia,
Thank you for your comments. I actually stopped relying on religious leaders years ago and have been relying on the Holy Spirit to show me the truth, although I don’t always get everything correct. However, in this case, I have no doubt that what I have shared is correct, so I’ll address your concerns.
[The main reason people support the Israel(country in the middle east) stems from selfishness]
This might be true for some, but as for me it’s simply a matter of loving what/who God loves and hating what God hates as well as aligning myself to his will. Concerning the Genesis verse you quoted, my hope is that as many people throughout the world as possible will be saved. I don’t have any favoritism for Jews. I merely pointed out that when Jews do something wrong, the cry is to take their land, but when other people do wrong like Syria violating the rights of the Lebanese, we simply call for their administration to change their policies, not for Syria to be wiped off the map.
[First of all,the 144,000 aren’t jews.]
Actually, they ARE Jews. Revelation 7:4 clearly states that John was told there were 144,000 children of Israel who were sealed in their foreheads for God. He then proceeds to tell us there are 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel. So which Bible are you reading?
[Are all jews immune to those sinful acts?]
I never stated or even implied Jews were not sinners or that they get a free pass on their sins. I was highlighting that God has not thrown Israel out. This is why I have the quote from Paul in Romans at the end of my post. Israel is still in God’s plan for being saved, physically and spiritually.
[So donot expect another temple to be rebuilt.]
Sorry, but God told his prophets something different. God told Daniel in Daniel 11:31 and 12:11 that there would be a physical sanctuary with daily sacrifices where the Antichrist would eventually enter to stop the sacrifices and set up the abomination that maketh desolate, proclaiming himself to be god. Many Jews in ancient times thought Antiochus Epiphanes was the fulfillment of the prophecy because he did exactly what was stated. But Jesus, who came hundreds of years after him, stated in Matthew 24:15-16 that this abomination of desolation would be fulfilled in the last of the last days.
Paul verified this in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 where the Antichrist will physically sit in the temple of God proclaiming that he is God.
Have you read Revelation 11 recently? John is told to measure the specific measurements of an actual temple to be built in the holy city, the earthly Jerusalem, where the outer court is reserved for Gentiles. This vision was very similar to Ezekiel’s vision in Ezekiel 40-42. As a matter of fact, a temple matching Ezekiel’s specific measurements has never been built, so the prophecy hasn’t been fulfilled yet.
[There will be no rapture]
The scriptures speak clearly that there WILL be a rapture. Isaiah prophesied in Isaiah 26:20-21 that God would send his people into chambers to hide them until his punishment of the whole earth would take place. The word “chambers” is synonymous with Jesus’ word for “mansions” when he told his disciples he was going away to prepare a place for them in heaven in John 14.
Jesus even spoke of people being “taken” at the coming of the Son of man in Matthew 24:39-41.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 says that God has not appointed us for his wrath, so why would he leave believers on Earth while he pours out his wrath during the tribulation? He has also given us examples of “rapture” in the Old Testament. When God decided to destroy the Earth with water, he sealed Noah’s family in an ark where they were hidden from his wrath because they believed God. When God decided to destroy Sodom, Gomorrha, and the surrounding towns for their wickedness, he saved Lot and his two daughters from his wrath because they believed in God. By two or three witnesses, God always establishes his word.
You have misread 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Paul was pointing out that believers who are alive will not receive their resurrected bodies before dead believers will receive theirs during the Lord’s coming. We will all receive our new bodies at the same time when we are “caught up” to meet them in the clouds. The word “rapture” means the act of being “caught up.” And notice that Christ does not set foot on the earth during this event as he does later to destroy Antichrist and his armies as stated in Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20.
Also, in Revelation 19:6-9 is when the marriage supper of the Lamb takes place where his wife, the true believers, are in attendance clothed in fine linen, clean and white. Not long afterwards the people clothed in fine linen, clean and white, who are now called his army in Revelation 19:14, accompany Christ to destroy the Antichrist and his armies. So obviously there are saints with resurrected bodies in heaven as the tribulation takes place.
Revelation 20 just points out that people who become Christians up to the beginning of the millenial reign are included in the first resurrection. This is not a denial of the rapture.
If you read 2 Thessalonians 2:7, it states that the Antichrist will not fully reveal himself until after the person who is holding him back is taken out of the way. It is no one other than the Holy Spirit standing in the way of Antichrist’s being revealed. So if the Holy Spirit will one day be taken out of the way so Antichrist can show the world who he truly is, then it stands to reason that the true believers will be raptured since the Holy Spirit dwells in the true believers forever and he will never leave them.
So who is the one who is really being misled here?
June 9, 2008 at 1:35 am |
Well said, Harry
Just a side point–a point of interest for me . . . I wonder if the 2 Thessalonians 2:7 statement is really referring to the Holy Spirit? I know there’s controversy over it. Myself, I think it refers to the church rather than the Holy Spirit. Maybe God will not allow the antichrist to be revealed until He has gotten His church out.
The reason I say this is that we cannot come to Christ unless the Father calls us. He does this through the Holy Spirit. People are saved during the tribulation. Does this not require the continued presence of the Holy Spirit?
I’m not set in stone on this–just interested in discussing. I could certainly be wrong, and would be interested to hear you expound on it a little further.
God’s Grace to you,
Cindy
June 9, 2008 at 7:50 am |
Hi Harry,
Yes,i have read what you have written.
About the rapture,first of all,its not written anywhere in the Bible. Whenever i hear people talk of the rapture,they refer to people disappearing,as when Jesus said that 2 people will be grinding at the mill and 1 will be taken and the other will be left.
I believe that the bible is its own interpreter. If one text is obscure,there will be an answer in another text somewhere.
When you read of the Lord’s coming in Thessaloians,it says that ”the Lord Himself will come down with a loud command,with the voice of the arch angel and the trumpet call of God and the dead in Christ will rise FIRST. Then us who are still alive will be caught up in the air with the Lord and the righteous dead. Ofcourse us who are left alive till His second coming will be transformed(our bodies) in a twinkling of an eye.
Remember that God is a consuming fire and at this coming all the wicked will be destroyed and will rise up again after the 1000 years to be destroyed again together with the devil. Besides,in revelation,the plagues falling on the earth arenot universal(please read your bible on this case). Besides,revelation 1 says ‘every eye will see Him”
Paul says in thessalonians that ‘there shall come a falling away first then the man of sin be revealed”. I have my answer but please tell me what or who this ‘man of sin’ is…
If you read the prophecies,they arenot usually in a perfect order. And God did this for a reason so that people donot wait for ‘forever’ and depart from the faith. Mathew 24 has prophecies both for the apostles time and for our time,all mingled in the same chapter. Not in order! So is Daniel 7. Alot of mistakes are made with the verses where the ‘Anoited One is cut off,the abomination of desolation,and where He will cause the oblation will cease’. Do people still sacrifice animals? No. At Jesus’ death,the earthly sanctuary and the sacrifice of animals were ceased. The abomination of desolation happened year ago at the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.
All the signs Jesus gave for His coming are hapening right infront of your eyes…so when will the ttemple be rebuilt? It will not be rebuilt. It was rebuilt along time ago as i t5old you to read in Ezra 6.
The 144,000 that are sealed,from the twelve tribes of Israel. The Israel spoken of here is spiritual Israel not natural Israel. Psalm 73:1
says ” Surely God is good to Israel,to those who are pure in heart” The seal of God cannot be placed on a impure person,who tells lies,slanderous,etc. Only those who ar epure in heart will inherit the kingdom of God.
Am praying for you.
June 9, 2008 at 9:47 pm |
Cindy,
That’s a good point that you raise. In 2 Thessalonians 2:7, the one who restrains the Antichrist from revealing himself is referred to as “he” in the singular. This is why I believe it’s the Holy Spirit who is referred to in the singular masculine by Christ in the scriptures. However, the church is mostly referred to as a group or in the feminine singular as the bride of Christ.
People will truly be saved during the tribulation, so the Holy Spirit will be around but not in the same way he is now. I don’t know how to explain it exactly except to give some examples. Jesus said in John 16 that unless he went away the Comforter could not come to the believers. Well, when we look at scripture, we see many examples where the Holy Spirit was already here because he filled Bezaleel in Exodus 31 to enable him to craft items for the tabernacle. The Spirit of the Lord also came upon many judges and prophets in the Old Testament. Luke 1 says Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost when she sang her praises and in v. 15 of that chapter, John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost while in his mother’s womb.
So if the Holy Spirit was already here, why did Jesus say the Spirit could not come until after his departure? When we discover the answer to this question, it will be the key to answering your question.
Julia,
You criticized me for relying on church leaders instead of scripture when it is you who has relied on what you’ve been told, so you’ve closed yourself off from any explanations that don’t line up with what you’ve been told by people who don’t understand the scriptures.
Both Ezekiel and John physically measured a temple. If there was not going to be a physical temple, there would be no need for physical measurements.
Isaiah 26:19-21 gives us the overall sequence of events for the last of the last days–the resurrection of dead believers in v. 19, the receiving of all believers into heaven where they will be hidden for a little moment from God’s indignation on the earth in v. 20, and the punishment of the earth’s sinful inhabitants (i.e. the great tribulation) in v. 21.
You can twist scripture all you want and you’re welcome to deceive yourself all you want with your arguments, but you’re wrong about the temple and the rapture. You’re also wrong about the 144,000. Like it or not, they are actual Jews from the physical nation of Israel. The gifts and calling of God on the nation of Israel is without repentance.
Some things in the scriptures are literal while others are symbolic and it takes humility with a generous dose of the Holy Ghost to discern between the two.
June 10, 2008 at 12:00 am |
Hmmm . . . you could be right about that. I can’t think of any instances at all in which the church is referred to in the masculine.
I’m not sure whether there’s scripture for the first part of this–I’d have to study up on it, but I remember hearing in sermons that up until Jesus resurrection the annointing of the Holy Spirit was only for prophets and priests and people with a special need of His guidance (like Bezaleel). Of course after Jesus’ resurrection, all Christ followers have the Holy Spirit’s infilling.
Maybe this is what the passage is talking about. What if the Holy Spirit went back to His level of working on earth before Jesus’ death and resurrection? Most believers would simply have to take things by faith, looking forward to Jesus’ second coming. I don’t know whether that works. Anyway, it’s an interesting line of thought. Not vital to our salvation, certainly, but interesting to speculate about.
God’s Blessings
Cindy
June 10, 2008 at 5:04 am |
Cindy,
You said..{Are you aware that Babylon is being rebuilt? (I know you probably are, but I had to bring it up.)
So i have left for you what i believe is the to be the truth. Using scripture to interprete scripture.
Babylon(of revelation). It’s a spiritual entity not a country.
Babylon means confusion. From the tower of Babel built in the plain of Shinar. (Gen 11:1-9)
The great prostitute who sits on many waters. According to the Bible prophecy, many waters or the sea refers to multitudes of people. Rev 17:15 ‘The waters you saw where the prostitute sits are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages’’
‘The woman sitting on the scarlet beast’ (Rev 17:3-4). A woman in the Bible represents a church, as in 2 Corinthians 11:2 ‘…..i promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you a pure virgin to Him’. Therefore the great prostitute is a church.
In my opinion, as a ship or boat is supported by waters underneath to travel (can’t sail without water), therefore this church/woman/prostitute is supported and carried forth by many people.
Those who aren’t virgins to Christ, who commit spiritual fornication and adultery and courting the friendship of the world, are (off springs) members of daughters (churches) of this great prostitute since she is their mother. For James 4; 4, says ‘You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world is hatred towards God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God”
‘The woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore the testimony to Jesus’ (Rev17:6)
‘In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints’ (Rev 18:24).
Therefore, which church persecuted the saints of Christ and drank their blood? The answer is the Papacy (Religious Rome). History bears testimony to that. The persecutions of the early church and those in the Dark ages and the Eleventh and Twelfth centuries i.e. the massacre of Bartholomew, the persecution of the Huguenots by the League, the burning of Huss and Jerome, among others. The persecution of Christians began under Pagan Rome but was carried on far more extensively by Papal Rome (Matthew 24: 21-22).
‘The seven heads of the beast are seven hills on which the woman sits’ (ver 9).The church of Rome/Papacy in Italy sits on seven hills. Proof that it is Rome.
Because of God’s help, He cut short the time of persecution (Matthew 24:22) and the Reformation took place. Those who opposed (Protestants) the Catholic church, departed as they didn’t agree with her false doctrines and as a result, the USA as a country was created (by the Pilgrims) but today, majority of the numerous Protestant groups have departed from the faith and are also courting in relationships with the secular governments of the earth and are as a result the daughters of Babylon, following the example of Rome, as she did in the past, raising her arm to the government of the day( Kings of the earth) to control the consciences of the people. Besides this iniquitous relationship, have the churches cherished erroneous doctrines i.e. immortality of the dead or ‘conscious dead’ among others.
Infact Rev 18:2 shows the state of many present day churches. ‘She has become a habitation of demons and a haunt of every evil spirit…’ That’s why in the succeding verses, God calls out His people from those churches, who, despite being in those churches have led a life pleasing to God. Just as Lot led a pure life in the sight of God, He called him out of the cities of the plain (Sodom and Gomorrah) doomed for destruction…but he had a choice, he could have chosen to stay but he didn’t. Therefore, if God calls people out of Babylon and they choose to remain in there, they will perish with it! And He is calling out today ‘Come out of her My people so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues’ (Rev 18:4).
This iniquitous relationship led to the falling away as Paul spoke of it in 2 Thessalonians 2:7,where the early church departed from the simplicity of the gospel and by conforming to the practices of paganism, to facilitate the acceptance of Christianity by the heathen. When Jesus came to earth, he did not commit sin (to do as we do) so as to make the gospel more acceptable to us. Instead He lived a pure life, either we are to take it or leave it. The churches did otherwise and look what happened.
I’ve several quotes and comments on the church’s behavior in this respect but I will leave these 2 behind for you.
1. ‘It is a matter of deep concern that we find Christ’s church so little fulfilling the designs of the Lord. Just as the ancient Jews let a familiar intercourse with idolatrous nations steal away their hearts from God…..so the church of Jesus now is, by its false partnerships by an unbelieving world, giving up the divine methods of true life, and yielding itself to pernicious, though often plausible, habits of a Christless society, using arguments and reaching the conclusions which are foreign to the revelation of God, and directly antagonistic to all growth in grace.’’ (The Healthy Christian: An appeal to the church, pages 141, 142)
2. To secure converts, the exalted standards of the Christian faith was lowered and as a result ‘ a pagan flood, flowing into the church, carried with it its customs, practices and idols’’-( Gavazzi,Lectures page 278)
June 10, 2008 at 5:21 am |
Harry,
You said… ‘I actually stopped relying on religious leaders years ago and have been relying on the Holy Spirit to show me the truth, although I don’t always get everything correct. However, in this case, I have no doubt that what I have shared is correct, so I’ll address your concerns’…
When you go to the school of God(spiritually and in faith sit at His feet and let Him teach you when you open His word),you cannot fail to get a wrong answer…as you said above that you do not get everything correct.
I believe the study of scripture should be entered upon with a :humble,contrite,receptive,willing,obedient and prayerful heart and spirit. Such that when God is instructing you and says,’you are a theif,liar and you need to change’,you will gladly accept His rebuke or discipline and truly repent.
Many people enter upon the study of scripture with a determined heart…only to find what is a appealing to them.
I said ‘I do understand where your interpretations come from. Please learn to ask God for the Holy Spirit to interpret scripture to you as you study God’s word.
many people rely on the man behind the pulpit for interpretation of scripture and the devil uses him to speak things that people want to hear. ’smooth things”. The reason i said this wasnt to criticise because criticism is a sin. The first sentence in what i said mean that to me,your interpretations are similar to what almost the whole christian world believes and i believe if you really went back and studied scripture by scripture,without holding to any previously held interpretation,you will find a different answer.
I have to say that there is no need to point fingers here,it is a discussion on religion…children in Christ do not fight.
God bless.
June 10, 2008 at 5:28 am |
..am sorry i made a mistake while typing…
”When you go to the school of God(spiritually and in faith sit at His feet and let Him teach you when you open His word),you cannot fail to get a wrong answer…as you”
Instead of wrong answer,i meant right answer!
June 10, 2008 at 6:05 pm |
Julia,
Even strong, knowledgeable, spirit-filled believers make mistakes. We’re still in corruptible bodies which have a corruptible nature and that includes you. I’m sure those who know you know that you aren’t always correct, so please don’t deceive yourself. Just because I admitted I’m not always correct doesn’t mean I’m incorrect on the points I’ve made in this discussion. One of the mistakes I made many years ago was believing that a Christian could lose their salvation. Then I studied the Bible more and had to change my way of thinking because of the truth that I learned. When I post things on my blog about the Bible, it’s only after I’ve thoroughly prayed, studied, meditated and researched by comparing scriptures. If I still post something I’m not sure about, I’ll admit it. You’re not the first to discuss with me your points, that’s why I’m standing my ground.
[your interpretations are similar to what almost the whole christian world believes]
Are you sure about that? Have you taken a poll? Even if it is the interpretation of the majority of Christians, does that make it wrong? The majority of Christians believe in the virgin birth, Christ’s resurrection, and that the Holy Spirit dwells in all believers.
Your views and how you express yourself are very similar to the “Church of Christ” denomination who think that they are the only ones who have the true understanding of the scriptures, when they actually follow their man-made traditions.
[there is no need to point fingers here,it is a discussion on religion…children in Christ do not fight]
I’m not the one who started the finger pointing. You were the one who told me to “learn to ask God for the Holy Spirit to interpret scripture to you as you study God’s word” as you assumed I hadn’t done that simply because I’m not in agreement to your opinion. I have simply responded to your comments.
Why is it that you assume we’re fighting? I understand this is a discussion, but don’t expect me to back down on what I’ve shared. Children in Christ do in fact argue, if that’s what you mean by “fighting.” Paul argued with Barnabas over John Mark. Leaders of the church argued among themselves at a church council in Jerusalem in Acts 15 when some of them wanted to hold on to the Mosaic law. Euodias and Syntyche, two women at the church of Philippi also had a dispute.
Since we are still humans without resurrected bodies, we still fall short at times. Yes, that includes you.
[The reason i said this wasnt to criticise because criticism is a sin.]
No, criticism is not a sin when it’s constructive. For instance, when Paul rebuked Peter and criticized him for separating himself from the Gentile brothers when Peter saw Jewish brothers coming his way, he did it for the benefit of everyone watching to point out Peter’s hypocrisy since God has torn down any divisions that keep Jews separated from Gentiles in the church.
June 10, 2008 at 10:10 pm |
Hi, Julia . . .
Um, okay. So we’re all going to hell if we don’t belong to the right church. Which is . . . ?
Actually, I think it’s pretty cool that prophecy is once again being fulfilled so literally. First Israel being reborn and now Babylon (which is, incidentally a city rather than a country, whatever additional symbolic importance it may have) being rebuilt. Saddam Hussein started the process, intending no doubt to use it as a personal monument. Now the plan is to create a tourist destination. (And yes, I did read your post. Prophecy often has more than one interpretation–in fact, it seldom has only one interpretation.)
Not that I necessarily agree 100% with your interpretation. It’s not all wrong, but it’s not all right, either. I don’t think you’re going to change your mind because of me, so I’m just not going to go into it. I’m sure Harry has articles in his blog. I don’t agree with him 100% on everything either, but he seems to be pretty close to my own ideas of the interpretation of prophecy.
Christians have disagreed for hundreds of years on interpretations of this kind of stuff. The important thing is Jesus.
God’s Grace to you,
Cindy
June 12, 2008 at 5:17 am |
Hi Cindy,
”Um, okay. So we’re all going to hell if we don’t belong to the right church. Which is . . . ?”
The right church is composed of those who lead pure lives( not some building that people go to,to worship God),who are careful not to sin and live their lives according to God’s law. Who walk in the ways of the Lord!
Hi Harry,
you said ”Actually, they ARE Jews. Revelation 7:4 clearly states that John was told there were 144,000 children of Israel who were sealed in their foreheads for God. He then proceeds to tell us there are 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel. So which Bible are you reading?”
In the New Testament, how come the rebuilding of the temple in our day is not mentioned anywhere. Don’t you think Jesus would have given it as sign for us, indicating His imminent return? Besides, what for? For animals to be slaughtered again and the blood sprinkled? Neither did John the revelator speak of anything of that sort in the last book in the bible nor even in his letters. Yet he lived through the fall of Jerusalem. Nor did other writers in the New Testament speak of it.
First of all, if you are believer then Abraham is your father. Not a natural father but a spiritual father. Romans 4:16-17 says ‘Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so it may be by grace and maybe guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring.-not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. HE IS THE FATHER OF US ALL. As it is written ‘I have made you a father of all nations’. He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed.’’
Therefore the 144,000 are spiritual Israel and the Bible is clear on who they are.
‘144,000 sealed, from the twelve tribes of Israel.
And who are they? What description about them is given?
‘They are the ones who had been redeemed from the earth. These are those who didn’t defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever He goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as first fruits to God and the Lamb. No LIE was found in their mouths. They are BLAMELESS. Rev 14:3-5
‘Surely God is good to Israel, to those who are pure in heart’. Psalm 73:1
Please read John 8:31-47. Jesus is clear. For you to be part of Israel (spiritual), you have to be ‘for Christ’, not telling lies, not being selfish, in other words…not being a spiritual adulterer or adulteress as mentioned in James 4:4 or even practicing the sins mentioned throughout the Bible i.e Galatians 5:19-21, Revelation 21:8 . Natural descent doesn’t count at all. Jesus told the Jews that their father was the devil because of the course they decided to pursue…cherishing sin and clinging onto their evil ways. Despite the fact that they were natural descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
You said that, that number of saints in revelation consists of all Jews, implying (according to you) that when Jesus comes back for the saints at His 2nd coming He’ll only find that the people who are pure in heart are Jews (as the 8 people in Noah’s day).The above quoted verses(Rev 14:3-5) put your argument at fault.
I pray for you.
June 13, 2008 at 5:31 pm |
Julia,
In other words, what you’re telling Cindy is that your church, the Church of Christ(?), is the correct church since you all know everything about the Bible and are sinless. Yeah, right!
I know that Abraham is the father of everyone who is in the faith, so there’s no need to assume I’m stupid. But I stand by what I said–that the 144,000 come from Israel and are Christians with a Jewish heritage. Gentile believers are never referred to as having the names of the twelve tribes. In Revelation, it names each of the twelve tribes and tells how many from each tribe is called by God.
The views that you hold about the nation of Israel have their roots in Roman Catholicism. The Roman Catholics taught that since Israel no longer existed when Constantine started it, that Israel in the unfulfilled prophecies could only mean their church. Therefore, they were the true inheritors of God’s blessings, including the land where Israel once stood, especially after they discovered that Peter was buried in Jerusalem and not Rome as they once thought. They consider the Jews as being rejected by God forever and feel that they have no claims on the fulfillment of any more of the prophecies. Protestants like Martin Luther who left the Roman Catholic Church passed these views on to their followers and it was passed down through the centuries to modern times.
As each denomination split to other denominations, many Protestants have held to these views started by the Roman Catholic popes. That includes your Church of Christ(?).
But then an amazing thing happened in 1948. Israel was reborn, to the shock of the religious world. God showed them how ridiculous their notions were and how hard their hearts had become.
If God can bring about the rebirth of Israel in the faces of those “Christians” who didn’t believe he would do it, then it’s not a far stretch to believe that the physical temple in Jerusalem that was shown to, and measured by John in Revelation 11 can be rebuilt.
Why haven’t we heard about it? Maybe secret talks are going on about it right now. There have been rumors that the blueprints already exist and are being protected until it’s time to move forward on it’s rebuilding. And as far as sacrifices are concerned, sacrifices and offerings include more than slaughtering animals.
[You said that, that number of saints in revelation consists of all Jews]
No, I didn’t say that. I said that the 144,000 were all Jews. John said in Revelation 7:4 “And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.” This means that he could have heard an overall general number of those who were sealed and was then told that 144,000 of the number sealed were from Israel, i.e. Christians with a Jewish heritage.
Revelation 20:4 says that all the souls who refused to worship the beast lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years and does not give a specific number.
So again I’ll ask–what Bible are you reading? If you weren’t so self-righteous and so caught up in the mentality that says “Woo-hoo! I’m part of the only pure, sinless church on Earth!” (i.e. the Church of Christ denomination) you might be able to learn something more than what you think you already know.
June 17, 2008 at 5:30 am |
Harry,
Am not saying that am sinless,because am a sinner and i didnt say i wasnt as those who say are sinless are liars.
As i said to Cindy,those who are for Christ are trying hard(with God’s help) to walk and live pure lives. The goal of every Christian should be ‘to live a blameless and pure life’ as Paul said in Phillipians 2:15 ‘’so that you become blameless and pure,children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation”
God, Himself says that we have to CAREFULLY obey Him and follow His commands. Deut 28:1 says ”If you obey the Lord your God and carefully follow His commands”. I believe that as careful as we are in doing so many things that could take our lives ie crossing the road or any other,so careful should we be in keeping ourselves alive spiritually.
Why does God tell us to repent,because when you repent,one stops doing the things we used to do in the past ande do them no longer.
Therfore the people God will find on earth are those who have carefully walked in His ways and are doing so now.And are those whom He’ll find spotless when He returns.
You said ”Why haven’t we heard about it? Maybe secret talks are going on about it right now. There have been rumors that the blueprints already exist and are being protected until it’s time to move forward on it’s rebuilding……”
Why secret talks,why arent they open about it and fulfil a prophecy they claim to exist? In the Bible,is nowhere a prophecy of the 3rd rebuilding of the temple. Don’t they have places of worship? Because i believe that they do,why build another temple? The old temples that were destroyed had several uses apart from being worship houses.The main reason was for the daily and yearly sacrifices performed by the priests and at the Savior’s death,the curtain in the temple was ‘rent in twain’,signifying the end of the earthly sanctuary and moving onto the heavenly sanctuary where Jesus is now as mentioned in Hebrews(i think chapter 8). The prophet Daniel spoke of this end of the sacrifices and earthly sanctuary in Daniel 9:27,the last part. I read the book of Acts,even after the Savior’s resurrection,nothing of the sort is recorded as sacrifices being perfomed because Jesus had caused it to cease.And the early church didnt not carry on a command that never came from Christ Jesus.
I still believe that the 144,000 are not all christian jews as the Bible is clear when it says “…they were chosen from among men”. As you say that they are jews,it shows that God still favours them as a nation yet that ended along time ago when they sealed their rejection of the Gospel of Christ at the stoning of Stephen and the Gopsel fell to the Gentiles. In Christ,’.there is no jew or gentile’.
I pray for you.
June 17, 2008 at 5:41 pm |
[Why secret talks,why arent they open about it and fulfil a prophecy they claim to exist?]
Talks were done secretly when the UN wanted to give the Jews a homeland and the state of Isael was established in 1948 to openly fulfill prophecy. The same can happen with the temple that will be established.
Many of our prayers as Christians which are done in secret, to obey Christ’s commands in Matthew 6, are rewarded openly by God. Jesus even told us in Matthew 6 to give to the poor in secret, not letting our left hand know what the right hand is doing, then the Father would reward us openly. Some good deeds are best when done in secret.
Then, of course, the plans for the temple may be kept secret because of the mosque that currently stands where the temple once stood. If Islamic leaders thought there was a plan in place that would affect the mosque built where they believe Mohammed ascended, there would be more unrest than there already is and the Jews are trying to avoid such a scenario.
You can choose to close your eyes to the truth of the prophecies if you wish, but a physical temple will still be established in the last days whether you like it or not. It’s true that God no longer needs a building for his worship but that doesn’t mean he won’t allow one to be built.
The Church of Christ denomination has plenty of places to worship, just like the Jews have plenty of temples, but does that stop your denomination from building other church buildings in the same city or in a nearby town or overseas somewhere? I would even venture to guess that if the Israeli government offered your denomination a place in the “Holy Land” to build one of your buildings, you would jump at the chance to build it. If you’re so vehemently against having a building where God is worshiped since buildings are no longer necessary, then why do you attend a specific place of worship? Urge your denomination to shut down it’s buildings and sell them and all of you can send up your sacrifices of praise and your sacrificial offerings from the homes of various members.
June 19, 2008 at 5:43 am |
Hi Harry,
I knew you would give the reasons of terrorist attacks and so on…
So if,as you say, the temple is actually built,for i am assuming it will be patterned after the last two temples. Will it have the the Holy Place and Most Holy Places?
Also,my concern over the relocation of the country. Why was the UN trying to scour the earth in order to place the jews ie in places such as Argentina and Uganda? I guess the natives of those countries would have been rrefugees in their own countries like the Palestinians are now…
I pray for you.
June 19, 2008 at 5:38 pm |
Julia,
Jesus said in Matthew 24, “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains…”
The term “holy place” is only used to refer to the temple in scriptures, so Jesus acknowledged there would be a physical temple. And this was AFTER he told the woman at the well in Samaria that worshiping God was no longer about a place. He also warned people living in Judaea, the region of Israel that includes Jerusalem, to flee when the abomination of desolation is set up in the “holy place.” If the temple and the abomination are symbolic, then why would it be necessary for people to flee from Judaea?
Israel is located where it is because that’s where God wanted it. If it was meant to be anywhere else, it would be. All of the neighboring Arab nations were asked if they would provide a homeland for Palestinians before Israel was established in 1948, but they all turned their backs on their Arab brothers and chose to try to destroy Israel instead. They failed miserably. If Israel was not meant to be, how is it that they were able to defeat their enemies in 1948 and in 1967 during the Six Days War, even though they were outgunned and outnumbered? They survived and were victorious by God’s grace and mercy.
June 23, 2008 at 6:38 am |
Hi Harry
The desolation Jesus spoke of happened thousands of years ago. Infact,Jesus said to them that because they killed those sent to them,”look,your house is left unto you desolate”,then He mentioned the ‘abomination of desolation’,the temple destroyed by the Romans was the fulfilment of that,because even Jesus referred to prophet Daniel about it.
Even Josephus,the jewish historian who lived through the fall of Jerusalem at that time said that the words of Christ were fulfilled to the letter. Jesus said that those who believed Him should flee to the areas He mentioned and when the Romans retreated for a short time.And only the Christian jews who believed Him fled. Those who remained in the walls of Jerusalem,the curses of Deutronomy 29 came to pass,and people fed on each other.
John the revelator also lived through the fall of Jerusalem,suprisingly,no where in his writings does he anticipate a rebuilding of the temple a third time!
Please consult the writings of Josephus and also the books of Milman,especially book 13 and 16.Then you will know that that particular prophecy was fulfilled at the fall of jerusalem,thousands of years ago.
I pray for you.
June 23, 2008 at 5:36 pm |
Julia,
Antiochus Epiphanes seemed to have fulfilled Daniel’s prophecy centuries before Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD. But neither Antiochus’ defiling the temple, nor Rome’s destruction of the temple fulfilled the prophecy.
Jesus said in Matthew 24 that right after the abomination of desolation is set up in the temple, “…then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.”
This great tribulation was to surpass the severity of any tribulation ever to take place on Earth. That hasn’t happened yet. Rome’s overthrow of Jerusalem was not the worst tribulation to ever occur. The Dark Ages, Crusades, European Inquisitions, and the World Wars were all worse than Rome’s destruction of Jerusalem. It only affected the inhabitants of ancient Israel. The tribulation that occurs in close proximity to the abomination of the next temple will affect everyone in the world and the world’s population will be severely decreased, according to Jesus’ prophecy.
You are blinded by the man-made teachings of your denomination. In Revelation 11, John is given a measuring stick to measure the physical temple that is in Jerusalem. At the same time this temple exists in the “holy city” which is the earthly Jerusalem, God sends his two witnesses to preach in that “great city…where also our Lord was crucified.” How much clearer do you need it?
There is even a court for the Gentiles in this temple, and Gentiles are allowed access to Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years. In the spiritual temple in heaven, there is no separate court for Gentiles. All believers worship together. The two witnesses show up in response to the Antichrist’s abomination set up in the next temple to be built in Jerusalem.
Revelation 11 says without any doubt that there will be another temple in Jerusalem. You can’t accept it because you’ve been blinded by the doctrines of your denomination. The fact that you said the temple doesn’t show up in John’s writings shows that you either haven’t read Revelation and are going by what you’ve been told by your denomination, or you’ve been reading a perverted imitation of the true Bible.
June 29, 2008 at 6:40 am |
Hi Harry,
You said ”At the same time this temple exists in the “holy city” which is the earthly Jerusalem, God sends his two witnesses to preach in that “great city…where also our Lord was crucified.”
‘The great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their LORD was crucified’ Rev 11:8
That great city is not Jerusalem because Jesus wasn’t crucified inside Jerusalem but outside the city. Also, the ‘great city’ is described as having characteristics of both Sodom and Egypt which are licentiousness and atheism respectively. It is ‘figuratively called Sodom and Egypt’. You cannot say that despite Jerusalem’s backsliding, it was notorious with those characteristics…?
Of all nations since the days of old, Egypt stands out as ardently denying the existence of God, topping the list of the ancient world. Exodus 5:2 says ‘Who is the LORD that I should obey Him and let Israel go? I do not know the Lord and I will not let Israel go’’
Just as other societies are and were (including our world today) licentious, in the ancient world, Sodom stood out!
That great city (nation) crucified Christ in the person of His followers.
Also, in the 11th chapter or Rev, a difference is made between the ‘great city’ [v.8] and ‘holy city’ [v.2]. If it were the same city, the difference or distinction wouldn’t be made. Infact the nature of the ‘great city’ is described. What description is to be given about the ‘holy city’? It’s obviously holy. How can the ‘holy city’ (people who know God, obey God and love God) be characterized by licentiousness and atheism?
The time span given in Rev 11:2-3 passed or was in the past. As seen in Daniel and Revelation, prophecy opts for days in the stead of years, meaning a day in prophecy is = a year. Therefore the 1260 days are the same as the time in Daniel 7:25, Rev 13:5-7, which are 1260 years that began in A.D 538, of Papal supremacy and ended in 1798, when the French revolted against papal authority in the French revolution and the French army under Berthier, entered Rome and the pope was taken prisoner in February 1798, dying in exile at Valence the following year, inflicting the death stroke on the papacy, thus fulfilling the prophecy of Rev 13:3. The same verse (Dan 7:25) says that the power existing at the time (the 4th kingdom) will oppress the saints, speak against the Most High and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for the mentioned time.
The ‘handing over of the saints’ and the oppression of them is the ‘trampling of the holy city for 42 months’.
If you interpret those 1260 days as 3 and half years literally, the prophecy in Daniel 7 of the 4 beasts or 4 kingdoms falls apart.
It is the same time mentioned in Rev 12:6 about the woman (God’s church).
Am sure you looked through the whole New Testament for verses about the rebuilding of the ‘famous temple’ and found none and the verse of Rev 11:1 certainly doesn’t indicate to us that this is a physical temple rebuilt (even though John was told to measure it) and since the following verses mention a time that ended before our generation saw it, certainly the ‘temple’ is in the ‘holy city’ which was trampled for 1260 years, which was ages ago. No temple is to be rebuilt.
I’ve also noted that those who are for this ‘prophecy’ of ‘a rebuilding of Solomon’s temple’ mean that it’s going to be patterned after the last two that were destroyed. Now, why would the people living in Israel need a temple with the Holy place and Most Holy place. For God to come down and dwell there as He did in Old Testament times? How about the sprinkling of the blood of goats and bulls? Why would a high priest (mediator) enter the Most Holy place once a year in the ‘new temple’, when Jesus is already doing that work (mediatorial) now in heaven? How about the things that were placed in those two rooms, especially in the inner room or Most Holy Place i.e. Hebrews 9:4-5 ‘the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant (whose quest for it consumed Hitler, no one knows where it is to this day). This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that budded and the stone tablets of the covenant. Above the ark were the cherubim of Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover (mercy seat)’. So, where is all this going to come from, since (I assume), they will not be making new ones but using the old ones that their forefathers used, whose whereabouts no-one knows?
Hebrews 8:1-2,5,6 ‘…We do have such a High Priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, and who serves in the sanctuary, the TRUE tabernacle set up by the LORD, not by man….they serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven…..But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which He is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.’
I pray for you.
July 2, 2008 at 10:45 pm |
Julia,
Once again, you’ve failed to do your research accurately. Have you actually tried researching the Bible yourself instead of asking for its meaning from people at your church? If you had a concordance, or if you do a Bible search online, you would find that the phrase “holy city” is only used for the earthly Jerusalem and the heavenly Jerusalem. In Rev. 11, it refers to earthly Jerusalem based on the context.
Jerusalem is called Sodom in Isaiah 1:10 and Jeremiah 23:14. Since Jerusalem was the capital of Israel, it represents the whole nation and God rebuked Jerusalem in Ezekiel 23 for playing the whore by adopting the gods and manners of the Egyptians. Therefore, Jerusalem can be spiritually called Egypt, as it says in Rev. 11.
[That great city is not Jerusalem because Jesus wasn’t crucified inside Jerusalem but outside the city.]
Your statement here about Jerusalem reveals your ignorance. Calvary may have not been inside the city walls, but it is still part of Jerusalem.
[Also, in the 11th chapter or Rev, a difference is made between the ‘great city’ [v.8] and ‘holy city’ [v.2]. If it were the same city, the difference or distinction wouldn’t be made.]
Wrong again. Jerusalem has been called the holy city throughout scriptures, but has also been called a whore as in Ezekiel 23. God considers Jerusalem his holy city because one day he will cleanse it to become as holy as he determined it to be centuries ago. Don’t you know that God calls things that are not, as though they were? When he calls it the great city that is Sodom and Egypt, he’s referring to its present, unholy state that hasn’t been made holy yet.
There are plenty of examples of people, places, and things in scripture being called holy one minute and unholy the next. Remember Peter’s confession of who Christ was and then a couple of minutes later his Satanically-inspired rebuke of Christ?
[The time span given in Rev 11:2-3 passed or was in the past.]
Once again, your ignorance is showing with this statement. If you read further down the chapter, the two witnesses were killed by Antichrist and their bodies lay in the street 3 1/2 days. Then the whole world saw their bodies in the street and had a celebration of their deaths. After 3 1/2 days they rose from the dead and ascended into heaven while the whole world watched. This has never happened anywhere in history because the means for the whole world to see an event such as this has only been possible in recent history.
[Now, why would the people living in Israel need a temple with the Holy place and Most Holy place. For God to come down and dwell there as He did in Old Testament times?]
Jesus in his prophecy about the physical temple only mentioned a holy place. He didn’t say anything about a “Most Holy Place,” which is the only part of the temple that had the veil torn when Christ died. Furthermore, I can apply your question to church buildings that are patterned after the temples which were destroyed. In church buildings, there is the foyer outside the sanctuary (outer court), the sanctuary (holy place), and the altar/pulpit/choir stand area (most holy place). So why do we need these designated areas in a church building, when God is a spirit who is not confined to a specific area and we can worship him anywhere we happen to be? Why do we need a pulpit or choir stand that places people on a higher plane than those who sit in the pews when God is no respecter of persons and all Christians have equal access to God and there is no longer a priestly class?
Your arguments don’t hold water and it’s obvious you’ve hardened your heart against the truth in the prophecies. As Paul said so eloquently, “But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.” Instead of praying for me, try praying for yourself for God to soften your hardened heart. Instead of bothering me with your comments that show your lack of knowledge, spend more time humbly reading and meditating on God’s word.